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Liam_Wolf
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 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Liam_Wolf wrote: | | nonentropic wrote: | later on. i have no need to prove this point at this time.
- consider this one point though: it is easier to destroy most things in this world than it is to create them. wanton destruction for no good reason at all easily falls into the evil category from a human species survival point of view. if, someone wants to die...let'em kill themself...and leave the rest of us the fuck alone. just because something can be done does not mean that it should be done. good and wise judgement should be used and developed so that better solutions to the most difficult issues/problems (for instance) will more likely be found. like aiming a gun...if it's aimed well...one is more likely to hit the target. more later... at some point. - |
What do you consider a "Good Reason" see your logic is invalid because everyone has a different opinion on what is good and what is evil. I could say that I believe happiness is the killer of the human race thus it's evil. To fight that evil you would have to cause destruction.
or maybe that example is a bit out their, how about testing? If you wanted to test the limits of society in order to figure out how you could better it would causing destruction really be a bad thing?
You cannot answer them because I will already have another argument lined up. Thus you logic fails you. |
the arguments fail. might just as well change the meaning for all the words such that no one knows what they're talking about. might just as well say that love does not exist either...that it is all mental and individualized or that we can never really know, understand or communicate with another. go ahead live that way. see how long you will last. if, you can make a choice between things...there will always be at least one choice that is worse than the other...and in the extreme (the most obvious instances) the good/the beneficial thing or act will be galringly obvious to most...while at the other end (or tangentally) the heinous thing or act will likely be quite apparent as well. go ahead...use no reasoning ability...use no judgement...don't weigh things for merit and value...eveything's all the same...what difference does it make...why do anything all??? why??? nonsense. later. |
Again your logic has failed to convince me. My whole point is that different people think different things are good and bad thus nothing is good and bad. Some people in Arabic countries believe it is alright to stone women. Yet you disagree, but who are you to disagree with what they think is right? Why is your side good and theirs bad?
Humans have morals each of us have different morals; So while you think one thing is right I may think it's wrong.
- Love -
"First, we will acknowledge the current data. According to scientific research, emotions are generated during the process of meeting and falling in love because of chemical reactions that occur in our bodies. For example, whenever you first meet someone and feel attracted, your brain creates phenyl ethylamine, known as the “love drug.” Dopamine and norepinephren are two more chemicals that arise from just thinking loving thoughts about another. Those two help us to feel excited and interested enough to actually touch or kiss someone, and that sets off more chain reactions, beginning with serotonin, which produces feelings of relaxation. Now the door to trust is open.
If you continue to snuggle with this chemically stimulating person, then oxytocin is created. Oxytocin causes us to feel connected to those we hug or touch on a regular basis, such as our spouses and family members. Vasopressin, another powerful chemical, then ties many of our feelings to memories, and these help us to stay connected to the ones we love. Vasopressin has been credited for making human beings monogamous. "
I say this topic should be remade in "The Intellectual Life" Do you agree?
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Zephr
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Liam_Wolf wrote: | | nonentropic wrote: | later on. i have no need to prove this point at this time.
- consider this one point though: it is easier to destroy most things in this world than it is to create them. wanton destruction for no good reason at all easily falls into the evil category from a human species survival point of view. if, someone wants to die...let'em kill themself...and leave the rest of us the fuck alone. just because something can be done does not mean that it should be done. good and wise judgement should be used and developed so that better solutions to the most difficult issues/problems (for instance) will more likely be found. like aiming a gun...if it's aimed well...one is more likely to hit the target. more later... at some point. - |
What do you consider a "Good Reason" see your logic is invalid because everyone has a different opinion on what is good and what is evil. I could say that I believe happiness is the killer of the human race thus it's evil. To fight that evil you would have to cause destruction.
or maybe that example is a bit out their, how about testing? If you wanted to test the limits of society in order to figure out how you could better it would causing destruction really be a bad thing?
You cannot answer them because I will already have another argument lined up. Thus you logic fails you. |
the arguments fail. might just as well change the meaning for all the words such that no one knows what they're talking about. might just as well say that love does not exist either...that it is all mental and individualized or that we can never really know, understand or communicate with another. go ahead live that way. see how long you will last. if, you can make a choice between things...there will always be at least one choice that is worse than the other...and in the extreme (the most obvious instances) the good/the beneficial thing or act will be glaringly obvious to most...while at the other end (or tangentally) the heinous thing or act will likely be quite apparent as well. go ahead...use no reasoning ability...use no judgement...don't weigh things for merit and value...eveything's all the same...what difference does it make...why do anything all??? why??? nonsense. later. |
There are certainly things that most people will agree are better or worse then other things. For instance not many people would argue that killing people is good. But then what about killing someone who is trying to kill a third person? Giving things a label like "evil" doesn't give justice to how complex and subtle the world can be. It's absolutely true that we need to make judgments about what does and doesn't work for society, but at the same time the world isn't a place of black and white, and to pretend it is can cause just as much injustice as pretending there is nothing that's any better than anything else.
The problem comes from the fact that different people have very different ideas of what good and wise judgment is. Whose idea of good and wise judgment do you use? I think the best thing to do is to let people do pretty much whatever they want that doesn't directly and quantifiablly hurt another person. But lots of people disagree with that. So we constantly argue over what should and shouldn't be allowed. It's a messy process, but it's better then dictatorship or anarchy.
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Zephr wrote: | | I'd just like to point out that even though it's easier to destroy than to create, we've still managed to create more than we've destroyed over the years. We destroy far too much, I agree. But we still manage to do a lot of good. |
yes, but folks seem to not realize these things (this concept is my own. no one told it to me)
a few examples of the difference: comet impacts Earth...destroys maybe 90% of all life then alive (the Devonian mass extinction event?...i'm not sure which one epoch had the 90%...i'm pretty sure one did) in a geologically very short time frame...especially when compared to how long it took for this group of life to develop and then have 90% of all the species become extinct from one event.
world trades centers tooks years to plan and build. they both were pulverized within a matter of seconds.
atomic warfare...seems there would be a tremendous amount of destruction, death and suffering as a result...the damn radiation lasts a long time. could have very major impact on things and life/human life on this planet if a fullscale nuclear war broke out...because humanity cannot get along...preys on itself...or has gone completely insane in some sections. a lot can go down the crapper really fast with all-out nuke strikes.
or let's say those supposedly oh so bright folks in Switzerland who've built the LHC to perhaps study the origins or the universe so to speak...and they actually do just happen to create a "blackhole" like/type of thing on an atomic level and it does not just go away...well, maybe we can all just say goobye at about the same time. some things should not be done. it is important to be able to conceive/perceive/see/understand the results of one's actions before they are done...otherwise, well i think the smart ones will get my drift/meaning.
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Zephr wrote: | | I'd just like to point out that even though it's easier to destroy than to create, we've still managed to create more than we've destroyed over the years. We destroy far too much, I agree. But we still manage to do a lot of good. |
atomic warfare...seems there would be a tremendous amount of destruction, death and suffering as a result...the damn radiation lasts a long time. could have very major impact on things and life/human life on this planet if a fullscale nuclear war broke out...because humanity cannot get along...preys on itself...or has gone completely insane in some sections. a lot can go down the crapper really fast with all-out nuke strikes. |
Zephr basically said the exact same thing as me. So thanks for agreeing Zephr.
Again your logic fails nonetropic. You provided examples of events that took place, the only one human's didn't have a choice in was the comet, and I'm incline to disagree that everyone would see it as a bad thing. Some people would look at it as a holy sign; Some people would look at it as a cleansing process.
The world trade center event happened because someone believed it would be a good idea. It would help them destroy what they think is evil. (Again creating what destroys)
I quoted this one because I knew someone was going to bring it up. Why do people look at Albert as if he was a good guy if he created something that could eventually destroy the world. Shouldn't he be looked at as the Mad Scientist who was manipulated in order to create the ultimate weapon? Again it depends on what you believe is good and what you believe is evil. He had a idea and acted upon it I respect that.
That last part was insanely stupid; I don't care how much of a theorist you are. Facts are Facts and if you don't take them into consideration with your theories (I do if they are obvious; I know weird coming from a ENTP but if the facts are so very obvious then you cannot dispute them) then you a idiot in my book. We could never create a black hole bigger then a pen cap and even if we created one that big it wouldn't do any damage but fall under our gravity.
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Last edited by Liam_Wolf on Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:56 am; edited 3 times in total |
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
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actually, i'm not trying to convince anyone. each can make their own mind i hope.
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | actually, i'm not trying to convince anyone. each can make their own mind i hope. |
Thank you for proving my point. Every one has their own mind, own morals, and their own good and bad. Just because one person says something is good doesn't mean its good and it doesn't mean its bad. It means that no one knows. Therefor good and bad do not exist.
Now on another level you could say it Exists without Existing.
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Liam_Wolf wrote: | | nonentropic wrote: | | actually, i'm not trying to convince anyone. each can make their own mind i hope. |
Thank you for proving my point. Every one has their own mind, own morals, and their own good and bad. Just because one person says something is good doesn't mean its good and it doesn't mean its bad. It means that no one knows. Therefor good and bad do not exist.
Now on another level you could say it Exists without Existing. |
wrong again. might as well say people do not exist. for me you do not.
edit: - fuck spelling -
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Last edited by nonentropic on Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rocky
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Liam_Wolf wrote: | | nonentropic wrote: | | actually, i'm not trying to convince anyone. each can make their own mind i hope. |
Thank you for proving my point. Every one has their own mind, own morals, and their own good and bad. Just because one person says something is good doesn't mean its good and it doesn't mean its bad. It means that no one knows. Therefor good and bad do not exist.
Now on another level you could say it Exists without Existing. |
wrong again. might as well say people do no exist. for me you do not. |
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Liam_Wolf wrote: | | nonentropic wrote: | | actually, i'm not trying to convince anyone. each can make their own mind i hope. |
Thank you for proving my point. Every one has their own mind, own morals, and their own good and bad. Just because one person says something is good doesn't mean its good and it doesn't mean its bad. It means that no one knows. Therefor good and bad do not exist.
Now on another level you could say it Exists without Existing. |
wrong again. might as well say people do not exist. for me you do not.
edit: - fuck spelling - |
Hey Hey why you getting tense, I'm just arguing a point. I even tried to help you out with information. People do exist. I'm saying Good and Bad do not because EVERYONE thinks different stuff is good and different stuff is bad.
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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seek the intent of the poster. i think you Liam are trying to be annoying. we'll see.
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | seek the intent of the poster. i think you Liam are trying to be annoying. we'll see. |
Now I'm "Trying to be annoying" by arguing my opinion. Yet when you are arguing you're opinion you believe it to be fact. I believe I have found hypocrisy at its finest.
I'm trying to debate my opinion verse your opinion while looking at things from both sides; That's why I said you could argue that it "exist without existing".
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Zephr
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| Liam_Wolf wrote: | | Every one has their own mind, own morals, and their own good and bad. Just because one person says something is good doesn't mean its good and it doesn't mean its bad. It means that no one knows. Therefor good and bad do not exist. |
Just because there's a lot of gray area in between good and bad doesn't mean they don't exist. They may be hard to pin down exactly, and they may change, they may even be purely subjective. But they're still real. As much as any abstract concept is real anyway.
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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- Liam - yes, but if you are trying to debate with someone who does not want to debate...then, you will end up debating and talking to yourself. it was interesting.
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | - Liam - yes, but if you are trying to debate with someone who does not want to debate...then, you will end up debating and talking to yourself. it was interesting. |
Hehe, I was surpised that you kept posting. I was fully prepared to wait intill you were ready but you posted anyway.
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Zephr wrote: | | Liam_Wolf wrote: | | Every one has their own mind, own morals, and their own good and bad. Just because one person says something is good doesn't mean its good and it doesn't mean its bad. It means that no one knows. Therefor good and bad do not exist. |
Just because there's a lot of gray area in between good and bad doesn't mean they don't exist. They may be hard to pin down exactly, and they may change, they may even be purely subjective. But they're still real. As much as any abstract concept is real anyway. |
But what if someone sees the supposed "Good and Bad" and then says that the Bad is Good and The Good is Bad; How does that figure into the whole "Good and Bad" situation?
You could easily say that Light is the equivalent to Good while Dark is the equivalent to bad, but I would argue the complete opposite.
I use debates and arguments as another way to better increase my knowledge on that area. So if you could please explain to me why you believe that you are correct (Zephr), and allow me to refute without you getting mad I would be extremely happy.
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