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nazcapilot
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 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Well-portrayed villains make everything more interesting. Go evil!
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Isra
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
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Location: Skagit County, WA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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The subjective value of an idea does not discredit that idea.
One could say that Good is the greater betterment of... humans, foxes, fireflies, Jack-In_the Boxes.
And one could say that Evil is detrimental to those things, as a whole.
*I will not talk about Nazis, I will not talk about Nazis*
When the Great White settlers came to America, they unleashed all sorts of evil on the native populations. Evils of the spirit, evils of the individual, evils of the body. Sure, they thought they were doing good things for their own people, but that did not make it good.
I really don't see how the fact that there are individual opinions on Good and Evil should mean that there is no such thing.
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Romana
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Isra wrote: | | I really don't see how the fact that there are individual opinions on Good and Evil should mean that there is no such thing. |
Perhaps. We all have different ideas of beauty, courtesy, intelligence, etc. but generally accept their existence. On the other hand, perhaps good and evil are just subjective and arbitrary terms we use to designate the things we personally embrace and oppose, respectively. Similar to "us" and "them", such terms need say nothing about the true nature of the thing or concept so described, serving only to place them on opposite sides of some divide.
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Romana
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“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| nazcapilot wrote: | | Well-portrayed villains make everything more interesting. Go evil! |
Hell Yeah! I always find myself more interested in the villain then the hero.
(Go Sylar! Even though your a Anti-Hero now.)
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Liam_Wolf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | On the other hand, perhaps good and evil are just subjective and arbitrary terms we use to designate the things we personally embrace and oppose, respectively. Similar to "us" and "them", such terms need say nothing about the true nature of the thing or concept so described, serving only to place them on opposite sides of some divide. |
Exactly.
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Zephr
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Location: Tacoma
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Liam_Wolf wrote: | | I don't want rules and regulations, I'd rather have general guide lines and suggestions. What if your helping someone that is planning to hurt someone? Wouldn't the blood be on your shoulders because you did infact help that person. Wouldn't you be the evil one. Your actions allowed them to carry out their actions. |
In a situation like that, whether what you did was good or bad depends on what your intentions were and what you had any reasonable ability to know. Directly helping someone to commit murder is bad, giving a stranger directions only to find out later they were planning to bomb the place you game them directions to is still good though. Life tends to have simple rules that produce complex results. But most people don't like that because they don't have a simple list of "do this, don't do that." It requires thought to figure out what the right thing to do is sometimes, and there's a lot of gray area. But I still think that good is helping people and bad is hurting them. I don't like the word evil though, I think that really only describes anti-social crazy people.
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Rocky
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | Isra wrote: | | I really don't see how the fact that there are individual opinions on Good and Evil should mean that there is no such thing. |
Perhaps. We all have different ideas of beauty, courtesy, intelligence, etc. but generally accept their existence. On the other hand, perhaps good and evil are just subjective and arbitrary terms we use to designate the things we personally embrace and oppose, respectively. Similar to "us" and "them", such terms need say nothing about the true nature of the thing or concept so described, serving only to place them on opposite sides of some divide. |
Things like beauty, intelligence, and GOOD AND EVIL are less subjective than what most of you are giving them credit for.
There are some, individual preferences, but few people argue over whether someone is attractive or intelligent, and so on. There are even less attractive and less intelligent people who realize this and most don't have a problem admitting when they see people better than them.
Same goes for good and evil. Even serial killers and rapists and adulterists KNOW that they're evil, but they still do it. I don't think many would deny what they do is wrong. When Ted Bundy was caught and given his death sentence, he said, "I know society is better off without people like me and I should pay for what I've done".
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HT
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Liam_Wolf wrote: | | Whats a Hybrid between Black and White? Gray! |
Hybrid sounds cooler. Gray is a more simplistic word.
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Romana
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Rocky wrote: | Things like beauty, intelligence, and GOOD AND EVIL are less subjective than what most of you are giving them credit for.
There are some, individual preferences, but few people argue over whether someone is attractive or intelligent, and so on. There are even less attractive and less intelligent people who realize this and most don't have a problem admitting when they see people better than them.
Same goes for good and evil. Even serial killers and rapists and adulterists KNOW that they're evil, but they still do it. I don't think many would deny what they do is wrong. When Ted Bundy was caught and given his death sentence, he said, "I know society is better off without people like me and I should pay for what I've done". |
What do you mean by "better than them"? Do you really think some people are better than others? I tend to think no one is better, just different -- perhaps better at certain things than I am, but not as good at others, but all in all, of equal worth as a human.
Good and evil are quite subjective. Some murderers think what they are doing is good, e.g. Osama bin Laden. He considered himself good, and us and the victims of his terrorism evil because we promote western culture and values. Even mass/serial murderers are not a monolithic group.
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Romana
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KNL
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Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 1454
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Rocky wrote: | | Romana wrote: | | Isra wrote: | | I really don't see how the fact that there are individual opinions on Good and Evil should mean that there is no such thing. |
Perhaps. We all have different ideas of beauty, courtesy, intelligence, etc. but generally accept their existence. On the other hand, perhaps good and evil are just subjective and arbitrary terms we use to designate the things we personally embrace and oppose, respectively. Similar to "us" and "them", such terms need say nothing about the true nature of the thing or concept so described, serving only to place them on opposite sides of some divide. |
Things like beauty, intelligence, and GOOD AND EVIL are less subjective than what most of you are giving them credit for.
There are some, individual preferences, but few people argue over whether someone is attractive or intelligent, and so on. There are even less attractive and less intelligent people who realize this and most don't have a problem admitting when they see people better than them.
Same goes for good and evil. Even serial killers and rapists and adulterists KNOW that they're evil, but they still do it. I don't think many would deny what they do is wrong. When Ted Bundy was caught and given his death sentence, he said, "I know society is better off without people like me and I should pay for what I've done". |
I'm gonna have to disagree with your reasoning here.
Consensus has nothing to do with objectivity.
The consensus, at one point, was that anyone who believed the earth was round, or that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, was evil, stupid, possessed, or otherwise deficient.
Beauty, intelligence, good/evil are, by their very nature, subjective. Well, maybe not intelligence.
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Rocky
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | Rocky wrote: | Things like beauty, intelligence, and GOOD AND EVIL are less subjective than what most of you are giving them credit for.
There are some, individual preferences, but few people argue over whether someone is attractive or intelligent, and so on. There are even less attractive and less intelligent people who realize this and most don't have a problem admitting when they see people better than them.
Same goes for good and evil. Even serial killers and rapists and adulterists KNOW that they're evil, but they still do it. I don't think many would deny what they do is wrong. When Ted Bundy was caught and given his death sentence, he said, "I know society is better off without people like me and I should pay for what I've done". |
What do you mean by "better than them"? Do you really think some people are better than others? I tend to think no one is better, just different -- perhaps better at certain things than I am, but not as good at others, but all in all, of equal worth as a human.
Good and evil are quite subjective. Some murderers think what they are doing is good, e.g. Osama bin Laden. He considered himself good, and us and the victims of his terrorism evil because we promote western culture and values. Even mass/serial murderers are not a monolithic group. |
I meant with certain traits that are "better".
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Rocky
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| KNL wrote: | | Rocky wrote: | | Romana wrote: | | Isra wrote: | | I really don't see how the fact that there are individual opinions on Good and Evil should mean that there is no such thing. |
Perhaps. We all have different ideas of beauty, courtesy, intelligence, etc. but generally accept their existence. On the other hand, perhaps good and evil are just subjective and arbitrary terms we use to designate the things we personally embrace and oppose, respectively. Similar to "us" and "them", such terms need say nothing about the true nature of the thing or concept so described, serving only to place them on opposite sides of some divide. |
Things like beauty, intelligence, and GOOD AND EVIL are less subjective than what most of you are giving them credit for.
There are some, individual preferences, but few people argue over whether someone is attractive or intelligent, and so on. There are even less attractive and less intelligent people who realize this and most don't have a problem admitting when they see people better than them.
Same goes for good and evil. Even serial killers and rapists and adulterists KNOW that they're evil, but they still do it. I don't think many would deny what they do is wrong. When Ted Bundy was caught and given his death sentence, he said, "I know society is better off without people like me and I should pay for what I've done". |
I'm gonna have to disagree with your reasoning here.
Consensus has nothing to do with objectivity.
The consensus, at one point, was that anyone who believed the earth was round, or that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, was evil, stupid, possessed, or otherwise deficient.
Beauty, intelligence, good/evil are, by their very nature, subjective. Well, maybe not intelligence. |
That analogy really has nothing to do with what I was talking about. 
I wasn't talking about scientific facts here, but people's opinions. If everyone has the same opinion on what is "right" and "wrong", then we can say what's right and wrong is fairly objective.
Not that there's ever going to be a %100 concensus, but that doesn't mean that right and wrong don't exist... just that some people are just out of their minds. 
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KNL
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Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocky wrote: | | KNL wrote: | I'm gonna have to disagree with your reasoning here.
Consensus has nothing to do with objectivity.
The consensus, at one point, was that anyone who believed the earth was round, or that the earth wasn't the center of the universe, was evil, stupid, possessed, or otherwise deficient.
Beauty, intelligence, good/evil are, by their very nature, subjective. Well, maybe not intelligence. |
That analogy really has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
I wasn't talking about scientific facts here, but people's opinions. |
So was I. The point I was making was not that people were incorrect about facts, but they had opinions of a person's intelligence/morality that were highly subjective.
| Rocky wrote: | | If everyone has the same opinion on what is "right" and "wrong", then we can say what's right and wrong is fairly objective. |
Summarizing, this statement is completely illogical. How can an opinion be objective?
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nazcapilot
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Location: Omaha, NE
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Liam_Wolf wrote: | | nazcapilot wrote: | | Well-portrayed villains make everything more interesting. Go evil! |
Hell Yeah! I always find myself more interested in the villain then the hero.
(Go Sylar! Even though your a Anti-Hero now.) |
DON'T SPOIL IT FOR ME!!! I've missed so many episodes. 
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Trondor
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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But there are elements of objectivity to beauty, good and evil. In beauty we often look for symmetry or the golden ratio 1,618
From an epicurian view, we can see evil as pain. Whenever we experience pain, both physical and mental, we are inclined to deem the cause of it "evil". Pain is an real occurence, caused by pain sensors in our body and brain. Same with good, only replace pain with pleasure.
Of course, with the intricate system that is society, what we experiences as evil differ, both because of what we experience in our lifetime is different, but also because we're differently constructed. What brings you pain doesnt neccesarly bring me pain, even thought the pain is real.
So we could say that even thought there are differences in how we experience "what is evil", evil does exist.
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