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Stuckasfook
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 Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| lol. whacko. |
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Isra
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
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Location: Skagit County, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| RadicalDreamer wrote: | I know he had Fi but I would assume it would be more mature according to the theory than his Te which it wasn't.
I think it was a stress response that I've seen from people of varying qualities. I agree it was a reaction to external stimuli but I didn't see anything deeper than a flight or fight response unless he was manipulating everyone with Fe. I am deeply curious on the mostly unknown cause. |
 I agree with this... I've seen it happen to myself many, many times. I've mentioned before that I think I acted more INFP during my teen years, and I think that constant emotional stress was the cause for that. I still see it happen, when I am frustrated by my own choices or things I can't control, I turn Fi.
But since that's not my normal sphere of operations, I have a hard time using it in a normal, healthy fashion. When I do, though, the rewards are great. It would make sense to me if, because of external and internal stress, someone like Mikkle did display Fi traits, and even believe that it was their normal function... I'm not sure if I think that is Mikkle, but I certainly think it is possible, and for what it's worth, I think your theory is a valid topic for further discussion.
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"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on."
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BGB
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Isra wrote: | | RadicalDreamer wrote: | I know he had Fi but I would assume it would be more mature according to the theory than his Te which it wasn't.
I think it was a stress response that I've seen from people of varying qualities. I agree it was a reaction to external stimuli but I didn't see anything deeper than a flight or fight response unless he was manipulating everyone with Fe. I am deeply curious on the mostly unknown cause. |
I agree with this... I've seen it happen to myself many, many times. I've mentioned before that I think I acted more INFP during my teen years, and I think that constant emotional stress was the cause for that. I still see it happen, when I am frustrated by my own choices or things I can't control, I turn Fi.
But since that's not my normal sphere of operations, I have a hard time using it in a normal, healthy fashion. When I do, though, the rewards are great. It would make sense to me if, because of external and internal stress, someone like Mikkle did display Fi traits, and even believe that it was their normal function... I'm not sure if I think that is Mikkle, but I certainly think it is possible, and for what it's worth, I think your theory is a valid topic for further discussion. |
this brings up an interesting point:
when highly stressed and/or depressed, ones' personality may be different than when they are not.
I am aware that when I was younger, I tended to come off as an INTP on tests. but, I also tended to be rather depressed and emo much of the time (depressed, emo, blowing off nearly everything as I didn't feel like dealing with it, well, apart from an obsessive interest in programming, ...).
likewise, a few people I knew IRL had also compared my behavior to an ISTP I knew, which I had thought was odd, and also my interactions with said ISTP are usually a bit strained, and I suspect a good deal of difference existed, particularly WRT writing style (where I have a bit of a tendency towards large amounts of verbosity, and this person was usually fairly terse and didn't really like my style...).
but, in recent years, I tend to come off on ESTJ on tests, and in general am far more positive/cheerful, optimistic, and proactive... (and I also socialize a good deal more...).
my tendencies for obsessive interest in programming continue, but I guess they compete some with things like socializing, posting, tendencies to obsess on moral and/or religious interests (and sometimes philosophical, but me and philosophy don't mix well I think...), ...
or such...
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Annabel_Lee
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Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 1051
Location: A kingdom by the sea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| RadicalDreamer wrote: | The link:
I understand what he wanted! He did want the topic dropped but kept on bringing it up. Verbally he asked to stop, silently he screamed for help, and nonverbally his Fi was hostile and vindictive. He had a vendetta for half of the people on this site since the drama on Pakistani girl night. He edited his first post in that thread. He called out Foodlord and C.beck who are his archenemies (Mikkle achieved his professed goal of learning how to hate). I only saw one tough love comment from C.beck on Pakistani night and Mikkle remembered his anger (Si). He couldn't understand Fathergia's response. Fathergia's response happened because I baited Mikkle into a discussion and gave him advice (I was just tired of reading the topics of not wanting advice so I decided to give it a shot) which he took selectively as a way out. Fathergia then seeing that he was open to discussion gave some friendly advice and after reading about I Statements Mikkle continued to use direct language with hostile undertones towards Fathergia, giving someone half his age a cold shoulder, then created a new thread where he couldn't even use his Fi well enough to see why he upset someone. It wasn't the twilight zone it was a ricochet. I think C.Beck was right that he didn't take time to understand others on this forum. |
I agree with your reading of the situation to a great extent. Yeah, it was paradox at its pinnacle, but I've seen it happen in many cases before. Part of it is just an intrinsic emotional response to situations. I'd connect it to the Ni, Ne or the Fi in MBTI, but it may actually stretch to other situations.
A bit of what I sensed, which is a mechanism I can partially relate to, is a desire to share personal issues but with an internal aversion to an actual response. It's hard to describe it to those who can't relate to it, but if you can, it just clicks. I mean, you're right in saying that the specific situation in question was largely a stress response, but there's more to it.
I've noticed this with mostly with the Fi types and some dominantly Ni/Ne types. They may readily share whatever is bothering them, an issue they're dealing with or anything of that sort. But they won't exactly wait to hear your response to the situation. Even when the dialogue is framed with personal helplessness, there is a constant aversion to advice. I think it's difficult for people who don't do this to even comprehend that sharing woes does not equal asking for advice/help. Because in our minds, they are two distinct things. When we talk about issues that bother us, we do exactly just that, share them with no intent whatsoever of working towards a practical solution with someone else. I'm just hypothesizing here, but the whole idea of working towards a solution for a personal issue is well, seriously personal.
I can see the points of the other side too. People can't exactly be expected to remain mute while someone shares their troubles. But there's a pretty fine line there. Our psyches don't subconsciously consider that an overt possibility. We share just to divide the load we bear, but that's temporary. The ultimate burden is completely, personally ours.
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Romana
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Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Annabel_Lee wrote: | A bit of what I sensed, which is a mechanism I can partially relate to, is a desire to share personal issues but with an internal aversion to an actual response. It's hard to describe it to those who can't relate to it, but if you can, it just clicks. I mean, you're right in saying that the specific situation in question was largely a stress response, but there's more to it.
I've noticed this with mostly with the Fi types and some dominantly Ni/Ne types. They may readily share whatever is bothering them, an issue they're dealing with or anything of that sort. But they won't exactly wait to hear your response to the situation. Even when the dialogue is framed with personal helplessness, there is a constant aversion to advice. I think it's difficult for people who don't do this to even comprehend that sharing woes does not equal asking for advice/help. Because in our minds, they are two distinct things. When we talk about issues that bother us, we do exactly just that, share them with no intent whatsoever of working towards a practical solution with someone else. I'm just hypothesizing here, but the whole idea of working towards a solution for a personal issue is well, seriously personal.
I can see the points of the other side too. People can't exactly be expected to remain mute while someone shares their troubles. But there's a pretty fine line there. Our psyches don't subconsciously consider that an overt possibility. We share just to divide the load we bear, but that's temporary. The ultimate burden is completely, personally ours. |
I can understand this perspective, and see it in my own internal reactions, though I do not generally act upon it. For me, it has evolved from the fact that, though I do ask others for advice, I rarely get helpful suggestions. In the end, I must work out a solution on my own, after thinking, researching, and being open to inspiration. Of course, all the "advice" people offer flows into the background information out of which I will pull my eventual solution. But the process of explaining the problem to others is often even more beneficial, since it requires me to develop sufficient understanding of the situation to be able to express it coherently. I do, however, make a point to listen to all advice given. Even if it is not the answer for now, I may learn something from it.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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RadicalDreamer
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Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Annabel_Lee wrote: | I agree with your reading of the situation to a great extent. Yeah, it was paradox at its pinnacle, but I've seen it happen in many cases before. Part of it is just an intrinsic emotional response to situations. I'd connect it to the Ni, Ne or the Fi in MBTI, but it may actually stretch to other situations.
A bit of what I sensed, which is a mechanism I can partially relate to, is a desire to share personal issues but with an internal aversion to an actual response. It's hard to describe it to those who can't relate to it, but if you can, it just clicks. I mean, you're right in saying that the specific situation in question was largely a stress response, but there's more to it.
I've noticed this with mostly with the Fi types and some dominantly Ni/Ne types. They may readily share whatever is bothering them, an issue they're dealing with or anything of that sort. But they won't exactly wait to hear your response to the situation. Even when the dialogue is framed with personal helplessness, there is a constant aversion to advice. I think it's difficult for people who don't do this to even comprehend that sharing woes does not equal asking for advice/help. Because in our minds, they are two distinct things. When we talk about issues that bother us, we do exactly just that, share them with no intent whatsoever of working towards a practical solution with someone else. I'm just hypothesizing here, but the whole idea of working towards a solution for a personal issue is well, seriously personal.
I can see the points of the other side too. People can't exactly be expected to remain mute while someone shares their troubles. But there's a pretty fine line there. Our psyches don't subconsciously consider that an overt possibility. We share just to divide the load we bear, but that's temporary. The ultimate burden is completely, personally ours. |
I see your point. I think at its' core it is a sensation.
The advice giving may annoy or make someone uncomfortable but I don't think it should create an anger response. One does not have to share. The anger response makes me think that something else is going on except in cases when the advice is blunt. I'm going to pull out the Big Five Personality Theory!
"Agreeableness is a tendency to be compassionate and cooperative rather than suspicious and antagonistic towards others. The trait reflects individual differences in concern for social harmony. Agreeable individuals value getting along with others. They are generally considerate, friendly, generous, helpful, and willing to compromise their interests with others. Agreeable people also have an optimistic view of human nature. They believe people are basically honest, decent, and trustworthy."
"Disagreeable individuals place self-interest above getting along with others. They are generally unconcerned with others’ well-being, and are less likely to extend themselves for other people. Sometimes their skepticism about others’ motives causes them to be suspicious, unfriendly, and uncooperative."
"Neuroticism is the tendency to experience negative emotions, such as anger, anxiety, or depression. It is sometimes called emotional instability. Those who score high in neuroticism are emotionally reactive and vulnerable to stress. They are more likely to interpret ordinary situations as threatening, and minor frustrations as hopelessly difficult. Their negative emotional reactions tend to persist for unusually long periods of time, which means they are often in a bad mood. These problems in emotional regulation can diminish a neurotic's ability to think clearly, make decisions, and cope effectively with stress."
"At the other end of the scale, individuals who score low in neuroticism are less easily upset and are less emotionally reactive. They tend to be calm, emotionally stable, and free from persistent negative feelings. Freedom from negative feelings does not mean that low scorers experience a lot of positive feelings. Frequency of positive emotions is a component of the Extraversion domain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
These splits make more sense to me than thinker and feeler.
A. Social Fi (agreeable + not neurotic)
B. Sensitive Fi (agreeable + neurotic)
C. Unstable Fi (not agreeable + neurotic)
D. Asshole Fi (not agreeable and not neurotic)
I was specifically thinking of B but I think Mikkle's behavior points to C.
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Function preference: Whatever my muse desires and requires at any given moment |
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RadicalDreamer
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Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| BGB wrote: | | Isra wrote: | | RadicalDreamer wrote: | I know he had Fi but I would assume it would be more mature according to the theory than his Te which it wasn't.
I think it was a stress response that I've seen from people of varying qualities. I agree it was a reaction to external stimuli but I didn't see anything deeper than a flight or fight response unless he was manipulating everyone with Fe. I am deeply curious on the mostly unknown cause. |
I agree with this... I've seen it happen to myself many, many times. I've mentioned before that I think I acted more INFP during my teen years, and I think that constant emotional stress was the cause for that. I still see it happen, when I am frustrated by my own choices or things I can't control, I turn Fi.
But since that's not my normal sphere of operations, I have a hard time using it in a normal, healthy fashion. When I do, though, the rewards are great. It would make sense to me if, because of external and internal stress, someone like Mikkle did display Fi traits, and even believe that it was their normal function... I'm not sure if I think that is Mikkle, but I certainly think it is possible, and for what it's worth, I think your theory is a valid topic for further discussion. |
this brings up an interesting point:
when highly stressed and/or depressed, ones' personality may be different than when they are not.
I am aware that when I was younger, I tended to come off as an INTP on tests. but, I also tended to be rather depressed and emo much of the time (depressed, emo, blowing off nearly everything as I didn't feel like dealing with it, well, apart from an obsessive interest in programming, ...).
likewise, a few people I knew IRL had also compared my behavior to an ISTP I knew, which I had thought was odd, and also my interactions with said ISTP are usually a bit strained, and I suspect a good deal of difference existed, particularly WRT writing style (where I have a bit of a tendency towards large amounts of verbosity, and this person was usually fairly terse and didn't really like my style...).
but, in recent years, I tend to come off on ESTJ on tests, and in general am far more positive/cheerful, optimistic, and proactive... (and I also socialize a good deal more...).
my tendencies for obsessive interest in programming continue, but I guess they compete some with things like socializing, posting, tendencies to obsess on moral and/or religious interests (and sometimes philosophical, but me and philosophy don't mix well I think...), ...
or such... |
I know how it is being in and out of depression. It is like being in two very different worlds and being two different people. I agree with you that the tests reflect people's perceptions of themselves! What kind of stuff do you program? How about the philosophy within your religious interest?
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Function preference: Whatever my muse desires and requires at any given moment |
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RadicalDreamer
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Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Isra wrote: | | RadicalDreamer wrote: | I know he had Fi but I would assume it would be more mature according to the theory than his Te which it wasn't.
I think it was a stress response that I've seen from people of varying qualities. I agree it was a reaction to external stimuli but I didn't see anything deeper than a flight or fight response unless he was manipulating everyone with Fe. I am deeply curious on the mostly unknown cause. |
I agree with this... I've seen it happen to myself many, many times. I've mentioned before that I think I acted more INFP during my teen years, and I think that constant emotional stress was the cause for that. I still see it happen, when I am frustrated by my own choices or things I can't control, I turn Fi.
But since that's not my normal sphere of operations, I have a hard time using it in a normal, healthy fashion. When I do, though, the rewards are great. It would make sense to me if, because of external and internal stress, someone like Mikkle did display Fi traits, and even believe that it was their normal function... I'm not sure if I think that is Mikkle, but I certainly think it is possible, and for what it's worth, I think your theory is a valid topic for further discussion. |
I think it is how people perceive and judge things as a result of Si (trauma) and Se (negative stress).
I thought I was a IXFP because of that too. Then I ended up having blunted my emotions so then I was a thinker for awhile. 
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Function preference: Whatever my muse desires and requires at any given moment |
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Isra
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 1086
Location: Skagit County, WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| RadicalDreamer wrote: | I think it is how people perceive and judge things as a result of Si (trauma) and Se (negative stress).
I thought I was a IXFP because of that too. Then I ended up having blunted my emotions so then I was a thinker for awhile. |
I'm really just starting to... balance, I guess. I don't think the avoidance of emotion (my twenties) is any healthier than embracing it with no limits (my teens)... You know what, I care! I care about people I know, I care about people I don't know, I care about individuals, and I care about societies!
*Whew* (You know, that felt kind of good.) Anyway, I care about all these people, but I want them to find practical solutions to their problems, and not do stupid stuff. I don't care about knee-jerk sympathizing and allowing others to play victim. Which is how some people think caring should be...
Hell, I don't know what I'm talking about any more.
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(Fi)(Ne)ly tuned ISTP
"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on."
-Robert Frost |
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Romana
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Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2939
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Isra wrote: | I'm really just starting to... balance, I guess. I don't think the avoidance of emotion (my twenties) is any healthier than embracing it with no limits (my teens)... You know what, I care! I care about people I know, I care about people I don't know, I care about individuals, and I care about societies!
*Whew* (You know, that felt kind of good.) Anyway, I care about all these people, but I want them to find practical solutions to their problems, and not do stupid stuff. I don't care about knee-jerk sympathizing and allowing others to play victim. Which is how some people think caring should be... |
Is caring necessarily an emotional response, though, or can it simply be a values-based response? I care about many things as well, in the sense that the situation and its outcome matter to me, but I tend not to invest much emotional energy unless I can actually affect the situation some way. What is the good of getting all worked up over half a dozen crises around the world when my efforts would be better spent focused on the one or two I can actually contribute to solving?
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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lilithsansracine
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Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 466
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | Isra wrote: | I'm really just starting to... balance, I guess. I don't think the avoidance of emotion (my twenties) is any healthier than embracing it with no limits (my teens)... You know what, I care! I care about people I know, I care about people I don't know, I care about individuals, and I care about societies!
*Whew* (You know, that felt kind of good.) Anyway, I care about all these people, but I want them to find practical solutions to their problems, and not do stupid stuff. I don't care about knee-jerk sympathizing and allowing others to play victim. Which is how some people think caring should be... |
Is caring necessarily an emotional response, though, or can it simply be a values-based response? I care about many things as well, in the sense that the situation and its outcome matter to me, but I tend not to invest much emotional energy unless I can actually affect the situation some way. What is the good of getting all worked up over half a dozen crises around the world when my efforts would be better spent focused on the one or two I can actually contribute to solving? |
I kinda follow Romana's stance on this caring business. Though, I would be lying if I said I don't invest emotional energy in things that can't be helped. It's not like that consumes my entire psyche. But there are times, when I am like "Aw shucks, I wish people weren't stupid and continually screwing themselves over". In a rational frame of mind, I fail to empathize with people who screw themselves over, but at times, I see the tragic component of a lot of things in life, and most importantly the irony associated with them. And then I am like "Hey that could have been me". I might not actively reach out to said people to help them, but I feel it's part of my biology somehow to understand that there are those less fortunate than me, and that I could have been one of them too, so I am not really in much of a place to judge. Of course, this does not guarantee empathy to each individual in a fuck-up.
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Lilith sans Racine
INTP, RCUEI, Enneagram 7/5, sx/sp/so, Facilitator
"I accept chaos. I don't know whether it accepts me." - Arthur Rimbaud, I'm Not There |
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Isra
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 1086
Location: Skagit County, WA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | Isra wrote: | I'm really just starting to... balance, I guess. I don't think the avoidance of emotion (my twenties) is any healthier than embracing it with no limits (my teens)... You know what, I care! I care about people I know, I care about people I don't know, I care about individuals, and I care about societies!
*Whew* (You know, that felt kind of good.) Anyway, I care about all these people, but I want them to find practical solutions to their problems, and not do stupid stuff. I don't care about knee-jerk sympathizing and allowing others to play victim. Which is how some people think caring should be... |
Is caring necessarily an emotional response, though, or can it simply be a values-based response? I care about many things as well, in the sense that the situation and its outcome matter to me, but I tend not to invest much emotional energy unless I can actually affect the situation some way. What is the good of getting all worked up over half a dozen crises around the world when my efforts would be better spent focused on the one or two I can actually contribute to solving? |
I think for me, caring in an abstract way (as in, things on the other side of the world) is partly an ability to "put myself in another's shoes," and partly my general desire for everything to run as well as possible. I'd selfishly like Africa to be doing better so that my tiny portion of tax money stops going there, but that's not really a necessary part of my desire for everyone to be happy and healthy.
On the other hand, my anger at bad parents is almost completely values-based, as I don't personally like children, but think that they all should have the right to a happy and healthy childhood.
In short, I suppose I think that caring can be either emotional or values-based, and I do both.
As far as fretting about the state of things very far away, I don't. I mean, I might care in a general way about what's happening, but I don't worry about it to the extent that I can't enjoy my lunch, or focus on the things I can have an impact on.
_________________
(Fi)(Ne)ly tuned ISTP
"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on."
-Robert Frost |
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Annabel_Lee
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Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 1051
Location: A kingdom by the sea
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I've never understood why we create the emotion/thinking binary.
Their paths intersect most of the time.
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"There's man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet" -Samuel Beckett |
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Romana
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Posts: 2939
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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More misleading than that is the continual equating of feeling with emotion. They are related, but at least in a functional sense, they are not the same. I see feeling (the subjective values-based judging function) as working hand in glove quite often with thinking (the objective, logical judging function) to set and reach goals. Emotion is present simply because it is part of being human, but I see it more as a form of input, sometimes useful, sometimes distracting.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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