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Annabel_Lee
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Joined: 20 Jul 2008
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Location: A kingdom by the sea

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.Beck wrote:
Well what was the least conventional thing you ventured this year annabelly? (hahaha)

one of my TA's didn't like that i had my thesis statement in my second paragraph. I had some things to lay out before i got to it, and the rest of what i wanted to say was distinct enough to warrant its own paragraph! bah. disdain. disdain.


Well an essay is still an essay, but we made no hamburgers. In fact, I've known people who've failed their essays after making the standard hamburger. Most of my TAs and profs like waterfalls and streams. They tell us to construct essays that appear the most organic and flow as natural thought progression. They don't have to be linear but there have to be visible signs of progression even with little streamlets and branches.

We're actually taught that the hamburger is a deadly sin. Your TA sounds pretty silly. Our TAs let us do some pretty crazy things which I found quite surprising at first. Apparently we're allowed to use the pronoun "I" in formal writing if it is used to clarify your position. Some folks brought in pop-culture references of beer commercials and chick flicks to legitimize a close reading of a text which was supposed to be from a specific theoretical backing, and that was totally okay. Most of our professors don't believe in the idea of "a thesis statement". A core concept holds a paper together, and the further up you go, the more they'll agree that "a statement" is really an artificial constraint--most people certainly need more space with this one.

Don'tcha wish you were at our campus now? Razz
PS- That's totally how I read my moniker now. Thanks Isra.
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C.Beck
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, we should have been more specific with hamburger terminology.
Progression is still key, uni directional in most cases, so calling it a waterfall is appropriate.
All i mean by hamburger is: intro, body body body ect, conclusion and point-proof-discussion - not necessarily in that order.

I often find myself wanting to step outside of that structure and do something like:
intro-intro, body body body body, close.

I got burned one time in particular and i'm still actually not sure whether or not i agree wth my TA. He had a point. I was writing a 1000 worder so i was thinking about techniques to maximize the effectiveness of my words and structure. I ended up trying three VERY closely related quotes one after the other without contextualization in between, but before. I used them to show a progression, which i then explained.
So TA man says i should have spoken about each one after quoting it because i lost a sense of solidity/authority/momentum without proper pacing.
but shit, i don't know. I think it was legit. they weren't long or complex quotations. they displayed a characters state, which i was arguing for so the rest of my biznass would make sense. I should have brought that one up with him.

And you didn't answer me! Razz How did you explore this year?
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lilithsansracine
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romana wrote:
C.Beck wrote:
iWhen my own ideas and an assigned subject align in interest, i write my best papers. When i write a paper without the interest or relevance to my current thinking i tend to take longer and write with a lot less alacrity. But that should be true of most anyone to some degree.

When I was in school and was required to write on a subject in which I had little interest, I sometimes amused myself and kept it interesting by turning the subject inside out somehow, coming at it from an entirely unexpected angle. Fortunately, my instructors took this in stride and my marks did not suffer overmuch. Some of my cleverest essays were written this way.

As for the word "thesis", the broader definition is simply an arguable position. The document one writes to obtain a university degree is a specialized case. Consider, by contrast, Martin Luther's "95 theses". These were not 95 graduation documents, but rather 95 assertions concerning the Catholic church.


I have experimented with the odd idea once in a while in humanities/literature courses as well. I used to be disappointed when I wouldn't get the most amazing mark on those essays, but over time, I have learned to organize my arguments better. At this point, I am quite comfortable with whatever structure required for an essay, but naturally, my scatterbrained nature is quite apparent on paper.
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Romana
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.Beck wrote:
I often find myself wanting to step outside of that structure and do something like:
intro-intro, body body body body, close.

I got burned one time in particular and i'm still actually not sure whether or not i agree wth my TA. He had a point. I was writing a 1000 worder so i was thinking about techniques to maximize the effectiveness of my words and structure. I ended up trying three VERY closely related quotes one after the other without contextualization in between, but before. I used them to show a progression, which i then explained.
So TA man says i should have spoken about each one after quoting it because i lost a sense of solidity/authority/momentum without proper pacing.
but shit, i don't know. I think it was legit. they weren't long or complex quotations. they displayed a characters state, which i was arguing for so the rest of my biznass would make sense. I should have brought that one up with him.

So this (highlighted) is what you call "hamburger style"? Almost everything has some introduction, a body, then a conclusion; the differences lie in what form each section takes. One thing with which I have no patience is when instructors (or bosses, etc.) tell people that the conclusion should repeat the introduction: tell them what you are going to tell them, tell it to them, then tell them what you told them. I find repetition useless, so I always make sure my conclusion, oral or written, contains something additional: insights, speculations, future exploration, a relevant anecdote, etc. Rote repetition is a waste.

Cooper: your approach sounds legitimate to me. The same old format gets boring after awhile. Your TA should have appreciated the variety, provided it was well executed (grammar, word usage, sentence structure, readability, etc). I myself enjoy diverse styles, but have little patience with sloppiness.
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Romana
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C.Beck
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Romana, i wasn't very clear. hamburger style is
Intro-body paragraphs-conclusion.

the one you highlighted had two intro paragraphs and that was certainly not hamburger style.

The second component of a basic hamburger style is in the structure of each paragraph. Highschools often teach a basic style of threes. Three body paragraphs, three points in each paragraph and an intro-body-concluding statement to each paragraph.
Each point in each paragraph breaks down into Point-Support-Discussion.
So it's based on threes and symmetry. Also, in highschool you can get an alright mark with analysis and having little progression in your essay.
Another thing they like to do is the pyramid (three sided!) where you write on general matters in your intro and narrow it down to your specific thesis. In the conclusion you do the opposite. You restate your thesis in another form and encapsulate your essay and broaden out until you can leave your reader with some related, insightful parting statement

I was exagerating a tad when i said my profs want a hamburger essay because they require flow and they don't mind how many paragraphs you have. The rule of threes is mostly broken. I have a lot of creative freedom but i want to change fundamentals. Find me a scholarly essay with the thesis in the second paragraph!
I want to make arguments, not essays.
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Annabel_Lee
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha. My year?
I've done the double intro thing before. My thesis was in sort of a transitioning position as it was at the end of my first, but developed largely at the beginning of the second. Since we don't quote these sentences with "THESIS" in quotation marks, the TA just had to follow my logic in that one. It wasn't a one-sentence thesis. I needed space to develop the introductory concepts. Two paragraphs it seemed, and that turned out just fine.

I also do this thing with some of my comparatives where some of my intermediary paragraphs aren't exactly body paragraphs because I use them to develop my points with a broader, out-of-context applicability. Basically, these paragraphs don't have any specific "support/evidence" points and instead expand on previous discussion and build the next point. They're kind of there to elucidate my transitions. I've never been penalized for those either so I can't complain.

There's just this one essay I had to write this year that really peeved me. It was a 1000-word essay, and our TA wanted an extensive plot summary in the intro (because he obviously hadn't done the readings!). So I did whine a little to have lost 150-200 words of solid analysis to a useless plot summary, but disheartenedly followed instructions anyways. And it came out okay.

In general, it was a pretty good year for essay-writing on my side.
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Romana
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not remember ever being taught to write in such a formulaic manner. I think I would have hated it. We were taught about conclusions, supporting arguments, giving evidence, addressing the antithesis or counterarguments, and tying it all together in a conclusion. I have never worried about threes or other structural formalities, though. I just write what seems to make sense.

We had a writing textbook in 9th grade called The Lively Art of Writing. It discussed some of these ideas, as well as sentence structure, word usage, etc. It encouraged use of active rather than passive voice, and the use of interesting, varied words instead of bland ones like "thing", "nice", and "really" ("banish them to Siberia", it said). It was a great book, and I can probably trace many of my better writing habits to that class.
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Romana
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C.Beck
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time for a pattern breaker update.
I recently realized that i compete in arena's, for work, that are highly social in terms of volume and intensity. Is manager the first thing that comes to mind when you hear INTP? Being a residence don was another position that was loaded with feelers, exhorters and extraverts. Right now i am one of two males working out front at this restaurant. The kitchen and dish positions are all held by men. Again, i'm supposed to be personable, attentive and people oriented. aaaaand smack, there's the INTP.
What's more is that i enjoy it.

Any other INTP's breakin' the mold? What don't you agree with or think is missrepresented by your MBTI descriptions and stereotypes?
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lilithsansracine
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.Beck wrote:
Time for a pattern breaker update.
I recently realized that i compete in arena's, for work, that are highly social in terms of volume and intensity. Is manager the first thing that comes to mind when you hear INTP? Being a residence don was another position that was loaded with feelers, exhorters and extraverts. Right now i am one of two males working out front at this restaurant. The kitchen and dish positions are all held by men. Again, i'm supposed to be personable, attentive and people oriented. aaaaand smack, there's the INTP.
What's more is that i enjoy it.

Any other INTP's breakin' the mold? What don't you agree with or think is missrepresented by your MBTI descriptions and stereotypes?


I can't say I am a 100% attentive to people if I am not really excited about my jobs or care about the concept that I am applying. I've held marketing/promotional positions before which I absolutely detested, mostly because it required routine kind of socialization (Hi, would you like our cheese sample from Damafro Quebec?) and didn't let me really think.

However, for things related to the arts, like managing film festival volunteers, dying myself purple and initiating frosh, I haven't really had a problem. I think for everyone it solely depends on the subject matter you are dealing with. I can thrive better in social occupational settings where I know the interests of those around me are similar to mine. I wouldn't be nearly as social in a vintage stiletto convention as I would in say, a convention on French New Wave cinema.
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Romana
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.Beck wrote:
I recently realized that i compete in arena's, for work, that are highly social in terms of volume and intensity. Is manager the first thing that comes to mind when you hear INTP? Being a residence don was another position that was loaded with feelers, exhorters and extraverts. Right now i am one of two males working out front at this restaurant. The kitchen and dish positions are all held by men. Again, i'm supposed to be personable, attentive and people oriented. aaaaand smack, there's the INTP.
What's more is that i enjoy it.

Any other INTP's breakin' the mold? What don't you agree with or think is missrepresented by your MBTI descriptions and stereotypes?

Part of it may simply reflect the idea that everyone uses every function. I have read that most type descriptions present the extreme, or "pure" form of the type, in order to contrast it with other types. Assuming type is inborn (which I accept), you overlay on that the influence of environment, requirements or opportunities of the moment, etc. and actual behavior becomes much more complex.

My husband (INTP) can easily be personable, attentive, and people-oriented, provided he balances that with sufficient alone time to recharge. He is very able to deal with people's needs in the moment, though he can become frustrated or impatient if too many of the people are ornery or clueless, or want things that don't make sense. I do not think he has ever held a job where he has to deal with the public, though. I do know he is much more patient and attentive, for instance, with elderly relatives who sometimes need alot of assistance. I look for the most efficient way to get things done; he sees it as a chance to spend time with them.
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Romana
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Zephr
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.Beck wrote:
Time for a pattern breaker update.
I recently realized that i compete in arena's, for work, that are highly social in terms of volume and intensity. Is manager the first thing that comes to mind when you hear INTP? Being a residence don was another position that was loaded with feelers, exhorters and extraverts. Right now i am one of two males working out front at this restaurant. The kitchen and dish positions are all held by men. Again, i'm supposed to be personable, attentive and people oriented. aaaaand smack, there's the INTP.
What's more is that i enjoy it.

Any other INTP's breakin' the mold? What don't you agree with or think is missrepresented by your MBTI descriptions and stereotypes?

I think at least part of that is most INTPs seem to latch onto one or two fields that they find especially interesting. I think that how people work and what motivates them is your big passion, so you know much more about how people work and what motivates them than most INTPs. Also you find that stuff enjoyable, while most INTPs would find it tedious because they don't have the same passion for it.
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KNL
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.Beck wrote:
Time for a pattern breaker update.
I recently realized that i compete in arena's, for work, that are highly social in terms of volume and intensity. Is manager the first thing that comes to mind when you hear INTP? Being a residence don was another position that was loaded with feelers, exhorters and extraverts. Right now i am one of two males working out front at this restaurant. The kitchen and dish positions are all held by men. Again, i'm supposed to be personable, attentive and people oriented. aaaaand smack, there's the INTP.
What's more is that i enjoy it.

Any other INTP's breakin' the mold? What don't you agree with or think is missrepresented by your MBTI descriptions and stereotypes?

Oi, not me. I'm moving in the opposite direction. But hey, way to break the stereotype. Represent! Razz
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Lenka
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTPs - they have feelings, and they have secret principles which seem obvious to them, and when you break those principles their feelings get all prickley, but they don't show it much. I was talking with my dad about this in the car today and the above is the conclusion I drew from the interaction. I never realized their 'principles' as described in the literature were actually tied to emotional comfort; I thought they were just an extention of logic, that they could experience no sentiment since everything can be rationalized away and accepted as such, cold and clinical.

Ha, my horizons open.
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Romana
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lenka wrote:
INTPs - they have feelings, and they have secret principles which seem obvious to them, and when you break those principles their feelings get all prickley, but they don't show it much. I was talking with my dad about this in the car today and the above is the conclusion I drew from the interaction. I never realized their 'principles' as described in the literature were actually tied to emotional comfort; I thought they were just an extention of logic, that they could experience no sentiment since everything can be rationalized away and accepted as such, cold and clinical.

This observation definitely fits my husband. I am always amazed how little justification he can provide for his most strongly held and consistent lifelong beliefs. Sometimes it is as if he simply cannot discuss them, or approach them logically at all, and when I press him, he becomes quite defensive. By contrast, I can always provide an explanation for my beliefs. You might not agree with it, and might fault my assumptions or even reasoning, but I am able and usually willing to discuss it in a logical manner.
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Romana
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das.energi
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I looked up the Similar Minds definition of an INTP, bolded are the characteristics I associate with

INTP
loner, more interested in intellectual pursuits than relationships or family, wrestles with the meaninglessness of existence, likes esoteric things, disorganized, messy, likes science fiction, can be lonely, observer, private, can't describe feelings easily, detached, likes solitude, not revealing, unemotional, rule breaker, avoidant, familiar with the darkside, skeptical, acts without consulting others, does not think they are weird but others do, socially uncomfortable, abrupt, fantasy prone, does not like happy people, appreciates strangeness, frequently loses things, acts without planning, guarded, not punctual, more likely to support marijuana legalization, not prone to compromise, hard to persuade, relies on mind more than on others, calm

favored careers:
philosopher, game designer, scientist, software engineer, freelance artist, research scientist, assassin, freelance writer, physicist, software developer, mathmetician, geologist, computer scientist, philosophy professor, webmaster, slacker, medical researcher, painter, mortician, systems analyst, comic book artist, computer technician, website designer, scholar, archeologist, computer repair, forensic anthropologist, astronaut, researcher, historian, systems engineer, genetics researcher, astronomer, enviromental scientist, egyptologist

disfavored careers:
human resources, public relations, social worker, guidance counselor, health care worker, trainer, school teacher, wedding planner, movie star, hospitality worker, supervisor, child care worker, fundraiser, customer service, stay at home parent, office administrator

I underlined health care worker, because technically that's what Im going into.

Anyone else find these descriptions to be largely inaccurate, or is it just me? Also, does anyone find a lot of negatives in the description but few positives?
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