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Romana
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Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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 Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Isra wrote: | I think we rarely change our opinions about politics and religion because our opinions in those arenas are generally formed by emotion.
People who think about those things using pure logic (which more easily allows new information to make new conclusions) tend to have middle ground views. Whereas it takes passion (emotion) to be extremely right or left wing, extremely religious or anti-religious, etc, etc. |
I do not believe it is possible to discuss matters of politics and religion using only logic. Logic is a process, and as such, requires facts and assumptions as input. Much of this is subjective and values based (values, not emotion), describing what each person considers right or wrong, worthwhile or harmful.
[edit: fixed inexcusable error]
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Romana
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“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim
Last edited by Romana on Thu May 14, 2009 3:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Isra
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 1086
Location: Skagit County, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: change |
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| lightsun wrote: | Are you saying that independents are less emotional and volatile.
Both thinkers and feelers have intense emotions and can and do act
volatile.
Also I have seen riots and mobs and team sports people acting out
of control.
Where all those people far left and far right. |
Um, I know. A Feeler can be logical about politics, and a Thinker can be emotional about the same. I did not use capitalizations, therefore, I was not using an official Term.
People can be emotional about some things and not others.
As I was not saying that Thinkers do one thing, and Feelers do another, I do not understand the point of your riot question. The people rioting are obviously acting on primal feeling, not any form of logical thought.
Romana, I'm surprised. I think it's entirely possible, and I do it all of the time.
I belong to no political party because it does not make sense to. I am pro universal health care because it would cost less money than subsidizing emergency room care for the poor, and allow people to stay home when sick instead of going to work, spreading the illness and being less productive. I am pro good free education, because educated children make better life choices, and are less likely to commit crimes, therefore costing us less money and resources... I suppose you could say this is values based, but it is also a logical argument, fact A leads to consequence B.
As far as religion, I see no evidence either for or against a God, and I do not believe that the existence of a God would alter my life in any way from an absence of God... therefore, Apathetic Agnostic.
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lightsun
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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Location: USA, Planet Gaia
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: change |
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C. Beck, i've been reading posts or should I say re reading to further my mind, as
well as understanding.
Please clarify, elaborate, discuss some of your own thought.
"so long as I discover an inkling of their character".
Why is this important. A lot of labeling goes on in this no man's land.
"I would push you to act".
We can not control another.
"hurt and get hurt"
Why hurt?
To grow,
Perhaps. Yes I believe that growth is unfortunately not pain free.
"just so you could really taste life".
Please clarify, elaborate, and discuss.
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lightsun
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:09 am Post subject: change |
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RadicalDreamer;
Please clarify, elaborate, and discuss these quotes of yours.
I am interested into perhaps digging further.
As far as elections, "do not believe that such could ever be an effective
means to bring about a free society". What then?
How do we change society for the better?
"a divided population is easier to manage".
Please clarify, elaborate, and discuss.
Thanx
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Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
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Zodiac "cancer" |
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RadicalDreamer
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Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 4049
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: Re: change |
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| lightsun wrote: | RadicalDreamer;
Please clarify, elaborate, and discuss these quotes of yours.
I am interested into perhaps digging further.
As far as elections, "do not believe that such could ever be an effective
means to bring about a free society". What then?
How do we change society for the better?
"a divided population is easier to manage".
Please clarify, elaborate, and discuss.
Thanx |
Martin Luther King wasn't elected but he moved mountains. I think people need to go out and instead of buying toys to entertain themselves they should help one another and create communities based on respect.
In many cases I noticed the politician is governed by intellectuals (ex Iraq war vs 9/11 truth vid below). He is told what to think. These intellectuals are addicted to their ideas. He is told what to do by the people who fund him. He helps corporations by passing bills and they reward him by giving him money when re-election time arrives. He have to have deep pockets to get elected. This cuts out many of the decent people out there. Also many of them come from elite universities and live in a different world than the rest of the population. They can talk about helping the poor people but they probably don't love and know one. They have also inherited class values. They are dishonest. Obama has backtracked. He said he was going to end war in Iraq. He lied and extended the time over there. He said he was going to be more transparent. He lied. He is protecting torturers. He is using State Secrets to cover up government corruption. He said he was going to stop spying on Americans. He lied. He broke that promise before he was elected with a vote. People's communications are being recorded by ISPs such as AT&T. The Patriot Act was virtually written (Biden had a bill) in the 90s just waiting for a crisis.
Here is some stuff on Obama's covering up:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
The populations are easier to manage because they argue amongst themselves not what is done in Washington. They support their team. Tribal cohesion. 24 news networks such as MSNBC and Fox are beholden to the Democrat and Republican Parties (check out video on it below). They create one-sided propaganda so neighbors can argue the way they want them too. They know they are right so they are allowed to have righteous indignation against the current Democrats or Republicans. One argument that comes to mind from Republican propagandist is that Obama was going to cut the military and the saying goes he did. This is false. He has increased military spending. The Democrats are trying to start a new page and ignore all the war crimes of the Bush Administration because now they are in power. They were against war but now they are for their war. Bush was bombing Pakistan before Obama started dropping them. A continuation in my mind.
Here is some Southern Avenger (he is a right wing extremist if McCain is in the center) if you want some of more of this point of view. I think he is fair and enlightening:
Fox News and MSNBC political allegiance illustrated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VDskoJ46Ng
Intellectuals for Iraq War (false connection between Saddam and Osama) vs 9/11 Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQB6lGJ1dmg
The bizarre connection between Pro-life and Pro-war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhgbcFhLWiU
Obama the Evil Muslim meme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEgaagZwibE
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Romana
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: change |
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| Isra wrote: | | People who think about those things using pure logic (which more easily allows new information to make new conclusions) tend to have middle ground views. Whereas it takes passion (emotion) to be extremely right or left wing, extremely religious or anti-religious, etc, etc. |
Your comment suggests that people whose political views are based more on logic have more moderate views, while those who are more emotional about it have more extreme views. Lightsun used the term "independent", perhaps to contrast with liberal vs. conservative. Perhaps it is hard to imagine being enthusiastic about a centrist position, but I have heard objective, logic-based arguments across the political spectrum. I do not think one can generalize here.
| Isra wrote: | | I belong to no political party because it does not make sense to. I am pro universal health care because it would cost less money than subsidizing emergency room care for the poor, and allow people to stay home when sick instead of going to work, spreading the illness and being less productive. I am pro good free education, because educated children make better life choices, and are less likely to commit crimes, therefore costing us less money and resources... I suppose you could say this is values based, but it is also a logical argument, fact A leads to consequence B. |
Precisely. You value efficiency, practicality, making "good" choices. Why do you value these? What, to you, is a "good" choice? You can approach these questions with logic as well, but it is like peeling through the layers of an onion. There are always assumptions and value statements underneath the logic, no matter how deep you dig.
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Romana
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“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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C.Beck
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 2964
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: Re: change |
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| lightsun wrote: | C. Beck, i've been reading posts or should I say re reading to further my mind, as
well as understanding.
Please clarify, elaborate, discuss some of your own thought.
"so long as I discover an inkling of their character".
Why is this important. A lot of labeling goes on in this no man's land.
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Without a label, it is nothing, barring basic sensory experiences.
Getting to know people doesn't always mean digging into each individual's core, but knowing a few people intimately and then extrapolating on the subtler hints that people show when you don't know them well and they are feeling guarded.
aaaaand getting into discussions about people's convictions is a good way to get to know someone. not so much what they believe, but how they handle belief and their interpersonal relationships.
| Quote: | "I would push you to act".
We can not control another. |
Yes we can. people are predictable to a large extent; triggers and stimulations.
| Quote: | "hurt and get hurt"
Why hurt?
To grow,
Perhaps. Yes I believe that growth is unfortunately not pain free. |
do you remember hatch's conversation about facilitators and balancing strong emotions and removing the motivation for real change? yeeeaaah.
| Quote: | "just so you could really taste life".
Please clarify, elaborate, and discuss. |
related to the above, as it was in the same sentence originally. 
Life opens up as we learn to grow in the right direction.
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lightsun
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: change |
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Thanks C. Beck.
I generally ask questions of people I respect, and or find interesting
I like to dig further to further EXPLORE the mind, heart, and spirit,
of a person with very interesting thoughts.
Where have you been?
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Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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HatchBack176
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Isra
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Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 1086
Location: Skagit County, WA
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: change |
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| Romana wrote: | | Isra wrote: | | People who think about those things using pure logic (which more easily allows new information to make new conclusions) tend to have middle ground views. Whereas it takes passion (emotion) to be extremely right or left wing, extremely religious or anti-religious, etc, etc. |
Your comment suggests that people whose political views are based more on logic have more moderate views, while those who are more emotional about it have more extreme views. Lightsun used the term "independent", perhaps to contrast with liberal vs. conservative. Perhaps it is hard to imagine being enthusiastic about a centrist position, but I have heard objective, logic-based arguments across the political spectrum. I do not think one can generalize here.
| Isra wrote: | | I belong to no political party because it does not make sense to. I am pro universal health care because it would cost less money than subsidizing emergency room care for the poor, and allow people to stay home when sick instead of going to work, spreading the illness and being less productive. I am pro good free education, because educated children make better life choices, and are less likely to commit crimes, therefore costing us less money and resources... I suppose you could say this is values based, but it is also a logical argument, fact A leads to consequence B. |
Precisely. You value efficiency, practicality, making "good" choices. Why do you value these? What, to you, is a "good" choice? You can approach these questions with logic as well, but it is like peeling through the layers of an onion. There are always assumptions and value statements underneath the logic, no matter how deep you dig. |
I never really looked at things that way. You've certainly given me something to consider.
I'm just wondering aloud here, but if facts are interpreted as personal values, then is there even such a thing as a purely rational arguement? Outside of things that can be tested in a laboratory, anyway.
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"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on."
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Romana
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: change |
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| Isra wrote: | | I'm just wondering aloud here, but if facts are interpreted as personal values, then is there even such a thing as a purely rational arguement? Outside of things that can be tested in a laboratory, anyway. |
Facts are not personal values, but both serve as inputs to even the most logically based decision making or evaluation process. As an example: a fortunate job hunter receives offers from two employers. A logical analysis of which offer should be accepted would include both facts (salary, duties, amount of travel required, location/commute, etc.); and values (how important is salary vs. duties or schedule flexibility, is the supervisor likeable and does this matter, is the organization's product something that one is uncomfortable with). The argument may be entirely rational, as opposed to emotional, but rationality/logic is a process, a method, and needs inputs or raw materials to work with. Values tell us what is important to us and why, and the facts help us measure the extent to which something is aligned with our values.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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C.Beck
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Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: change |
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| lightsun wrote: | | Where have you been? |
I don't know what you mean, so i didn't answer. i've been on pretty frequently, if not predictably.
I like the more general question, where have i, the whole of me, been in life so far. sounds like a question for another day though.
What do you think of mathematics, lightsun?
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lightsun
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: change |
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C. Beck, mathematics I am not so good at.
It s a different universe.
I admire it tremendously, like in Einstein, Hawkins
and the movie "A Beautiful Mind".
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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lightsun
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 841
Location: USA, Planet Gaia
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: change |
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It is hard to be open.
One opens themselves to being hurt, and yet this is the golden path of healing.
One has to be strong enough in themselves with an ego to begin the process
of letting go of this false ego (or junior child ego) and GROWING with
FULL AWARENESS!
Now the problem is that if a person does not have an ego (self esteem),
then they more than likely are chasing the distractions of the world
trying to fill their black hole.
This makes it difficult to do the activities that will help them grow by
doing the creative activities that are expressions of themselves and their
personalities
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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lightsun
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Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 841
Location: USA, Planet Gaia
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: change |
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Why do we fight change, or diversity, or differences, or uniqueness?
Is it because of fear and "EMOTION" & emotional reasoning?
This pisses me off.
I don't like it.
I will destroy it.
We shoot ourselves in the foot.
Beware an angry man.
Beware an angry mob.
They are possessed by ignorance and fear and are very dangerous
both to themselves and society.
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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