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lightsun
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Location: USA, Planet Gaia
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 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: BEHAVIORISM & some techniques to heal society |
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Is anyone out there familiar with Psychology and behaviorism? I don't totally
by into psychology, but all of the different specialized psychology treatments
have something to offer. BEHAVIORISM has techniques that I believe should,
or CAN be TAUGHT, that would benefit society. I believe tihat the "soft" social
sciences, should be taught in addition to READING, WRITING, and ARITHMATIC.
Behaviorism tells us about positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement,
and extinction! These techniques along with speech & logic awareness
of language distortions and fallacious reasoning, could conceivably give us
more AWARNESS! With AWARENESS comes growth and self actualization! |
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lightsun
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:58 am Post subject: BEHAVIORISM & some techniques to heal society |
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Behavioral reinforcements I equate with CHarles Darin and evolution!
If we place value on the spirit of both competition and cooperation, industrious
hard work, invention, creativity, logic, love, cooperation etc. Then we would
place value on it with POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT in the books, the culture,
the news, the media, tv stands magazines, etc. It would be shown, respected,
even possibly glorified. Then we as a society would have this in our
consciousness, would work TOWARD these ideals! (1) it would be shown
(2) we would be the audience (3) it would be positively reinforced!
If we continually show the worst sides of humanity with negative role model
then we DO REINFORCE it. ANY attention is NEGATIVE REINFORCRMENT, and will
continue to be reinforced if we continue to feed the hungry monster of lower,
primitive human craving. It helps to dumify us as a society & culture. An
example is the obsession with ultra skinny passion models and how
unconsciously and consciously, it helps us define "beauty"
If NO or little attention is given to any media outlets that showcase this
non positive side than BEHAVIORAL EXTNCTION takes place!
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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lightsun
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: BEHAVIORISM & some techniques to heal society |
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I still believe in behaviorism and behavioral techniques to help heal society.
We are creatures of habit. Our habits can be directed.
It still needs a public outcry to help develop a "RENNAISANCE" here in
America.
Education, education. Without education a society can not grow!
Practically speaking what can complaining do to raise a public
outcry.
It has to somehow grab the public's attention.
Until then it is whispers n the darkness. Unless someone can write a book,
or direct a film to capture the public's eye.
The public is powerful. It has numbers.
It needs only direction.
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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RadicalDreamer
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Get scanners, load up all the books and journals on to torrents, help the poor get cheap PC's and internet. Then away we go! People are already doing the first part but that little thing called intellectual property rights is standing in the way of progress!
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Stuckasfook
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Yes, intelligence and education is primary. Not only will be mostly act stupid and roughly without the stuff, but they will also always be way to manipulable in such an ignorant state by other forces, like corrupt politicians, damning dogmas and weather/geological phenomena.
Education is primary.
The whole ignorance and intelligence thing is a dualist and general way to see much of human interaction and human history.
Education and stable, legitimate democracy are interweaved and pretty much deemed necessary.
There is reason why the intellectuals and the higher educated most often cast their vote with 'leftist' movements, which seek to reform and spread suffrage. |
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Romana
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Stuckasfook wrote: | | Education and stable, legitimate democracy are interweaved and pretty much deemed necessary. |
How many people really want a good education? How many people will sit still and focus long enough to get one? How many people can actually benefit from half of what the better schools try to teach? More and more now it seems educators are turning themselves into entertainers, convinced that they have to provide constant amusement for students, and cater to the ever decreasing attention spans and tolerance for doing actual demanding work. Yes, you get out what you put in. If you want to learn something worthwhile, it takes sustained effort, the possibility of failure, and the need to pick yourself up and try again. No amount of window-dressing, cute packaging, or gee-whiz gimmicks will change that.
Perhaps this explains the sorry state of our democracy.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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Stuckasfook
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | Stuckasfook wrote: | | Education and stable, legitimate democracy are interweaved and pretty much deemed necessary. |
How many people really want a good education? How many people will sit still and focus long enough to get one? How many people can actually benefit from half of what the better schools try to teach? More and more now it seems educators are turning themselves into entertainers, convinced that they have to provide constant amusement for students, and cater to the ever decreasing attention spans and tolerance for doing actual demanding work. Yes, you get out what you put in. If you want to learn something worthwhile, it takes sustained effort, the possibility of failure, and the need to pick yourself up and try again. No amount of window-dressing, cute packaging, or gee-whiz gimmicks will change that.
Perhaps this explains the sorry state of our democracy. |
I was not quite sure where you were connecting to me with this.
Are you saying that because some people are listless or indifferent to education that we shouldn't care about trying to reach them?
I don't think it is fair to assume that a child in Chicago who is scared to go to high school because of guns and dope is necessarily in the same position as any of us here ever were. And I don't think writing off their stunted prior development, the result of a failed state endorsed systematic approach to supposedly intended equal, ensured and safe education, does justice to how people became indifferent after the fact, and later on. You were pointing out in the 'children's' thread about more preventive measures, instead of adopting measures that can only find out about problems after it is too late. I would urge that these same ideas be carried out here in this discourse.
You know what is messed up? Over in the other half of metaland, the Badger worshipping convent, there was a thread about teaching morals to children in schools and whether or not it should be done. There were good points on all sides, of course. But what really threw me off was when a teacher was like: 'I just feel like, who am I to decide what to teach to kids morally?'. And I was like.. whoa!? Ya know? I thought, damn it, you are a teacher. You've educated yourself beyond what is necessary and beyond what is normal. No one is asking you to be perfect or to be god. But your experience and knowledge makes you a perfect candidate for at least developing skills in logic and understanding. I don't get why there should have ever been an idea that teachers and educated folks shouldn't be able to teach and learn our children. Isn't that what they are there for? A book can teach a kid about what year the French and American revolutions took place. Surely a teacher is meant to do more than that. They are there to describe why people wanted to rebel, why it was justifiable that people should want equality before the eyes of the law, and why birthrighted aristocracy was a demented offspring of the failing monarchies of europe, and why it severely limited the overall intellectual capacity of western humans in general. ..
Hmm.. rambling really is fun.
How many people want a good education? Well what is good? I am not thinking about attaining the lofty heights of your scientific education. But actual history courses, some kind of philosophy or logic course (besides the abstract ones in mathematics), a course that deals with the effectiveness of science combined with science itself, etc, would help a lot. I'm not saying that everyone should become bookworms or everyone should be the same educationally. If anything, such a system that provided adequate modes for thinking would benefit us by procuring the true talents of our species.
This would bring two very different groups together too: the working classes and the intellectuals. The working classes would lose some of their disdain for intellectuals and the intellectuals would lose some of their disdain for the workers. It would be important for the majority, the workers, to understand that the rights of education and freedom be respected for the betterment of everyone, by allowing those with the desire and capacity for reasoning to become all they can be. And it would be supremely important that the smartest of the smarts, the intellectuals, acknowledge the dependency they have on the workers; it would be vital that they really respect and never disgrace a worker just because of the manual job they carry out. This was one of the most important things that Marx, and people like him, knew. Degrading the common workers on the basis that their livelihoods should have to be earned in their own back breaking way was wrong. And it is wrong that ultra powerful monied interest should be able to turn men and women, who worked 40-60 hours a week, into debt slaves with little to live for, in terms of creativity and liesure time (and liesure time has been shown to be a factor in making humans more political, by giving them time to think and spend energy on policy decision making). These would be workers who are just trying to support children, trying to see that they are given the same, if not better, opportunities to make it in a society built on merit, swift thinking and charity, instead of monied or influential inheritance. This is what is necessary: letting all be entitled to the same rights and privledges. This is where communism failed so thoroughly; it couldn't give the workers the power to create and think.
So.. yeah.. daydreaming again.
please read this quote of Camus's
"Contemptuous teachers, unaware that they were thereby insulting the working classes, had assured us that the masses could readily get along without liberty if only they were given bread. And the masses themselves suddenly replied that they didn't have bread but that, even if they did, they would still like something else. For it was not a learned professor but a Budapest blacksmith who wrote: "I want to be considered an adult eager to think and capable of thought. I want to be able to express my thoughts without having anything to fear and I want, also, to be listened to.""
essay: Kadar Had His Day Of Death, 1957, pg160
Resistance Rebellion and Death |
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lightsun
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Location: USA, Planet Gaia
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: BEHAVIORISM & some techniques to heal society |
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Romana, "How many people want a good education"?
(1) How about if adults have access to higher education, to further their
dreams?
After a teenager leaves school, they may take many years to develop
and find them self. If they still have access to education, then they can
further their dreams.
(2) As a child, you take the courses given you.
You are in a sense "spoon fed"!
It might take years for one to fully appreciate what they had learned.
Romana, "Educators are turning themselves into entertainers".
This part I do not like myself.
I have stated psychological testing to find out the best learning
style for each child. I am for furthering the aid to teachers
"in the trenches" of the school system. If it was determines the best
learning style for each child, then perhaps THIS would hold the child's
attention.
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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Zephr
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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The real problem with our education system is that it's not the eduction system that's the problem.
Sure, the eduction system has lots of problems, but the way our society is today even if we could somehow fix all of them our children would still not be getting the education they need.
We have a culture of willful ignorance in America today. Children are brought into it by television and neglectful parenting long before they ever reach our education system. Our whole culture needs to rediscover its respect for intelligence before we have any hope of making any real progress toward a more educated public.
Unfortunately the only realistic way I can see that happening is for us to suffer the consequences of an uneducated public. We're getting there, but I think it will have to get worse before we will be forced to face it.
Stuckasfook, your idea would work, except that I don't think most people in America today want that, which is what I think Romana was trying to say. It's that lack of desire for an education that is the source of our problems, and it's there that our solutions should be aimed.
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Stuckasfook
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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You are right. And in that respect, as I think I said in my post, Romana was right.
But we shouldn't leave people who are indifferent towards education in charge of education. We need folks that are really interested if anything. Of course we aren't going to storm into the white house and take charge. But we can do things, at the grass roots level, arguing inconsistent opinion leaders in our respective social groups, extolling the benefits to indifferent folks, but who have children who could be benefitted, which would almost immediately draw their interest again to pro-education attitudes, joining clubs and organizaitons which support this kinda stuff or going to homeless sheleters,etc.
I mean, fook, we can't just wait for a revolution. I don't wanna see any friends or you folks hurt in that way. And I'll be honest, I don't want that to happen to me. We have to start sometime, whether now or during the turmoil of a nation wide crisis. Might as well be now right? All doctrines that preach the end of history or the future as perfection, like the millenial religions and communism/authoritarian socialism, have been terroristic and among the worst sources of freedom and safety of our contemporary centuries.
I, personally, will not wait for the worst. I live too short of a life for anything like that. Besides, I can't live with myself when I do that.
In relation, if I don't get myself into some kind of habitat for humanity or homeless shelter help, I'm going to hang myself by my testicles from the closest apple tree. And there are orchards all around Green Bay. God damned apple trees, always after my nuts. |
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lightsun
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: BEHAVIORISM & some techniques for healing society |
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Stuckasfook to Romana, "Are you saying that because some people are
listless or indifferent to educate that we shouldn't care about trying to
reach them"?
This was one of the reasons I am for psychological testing.
If we can find in which mode, the child learns best, then perhaps we can
hold their attention.
_________________
Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver
I want PEACE!
I want to UNDERSTAND the nature
of distortions, distractions, &
illusions that keep us from the
TRUTH!
I WANT TO BE HAPPY!
INFP, cognitive style MERCY!
eneeagram #9!!
Zodiac "cancer" |
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RadicalDreamer
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Zephr
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Stuckasfook wrote: | You are right. And in that respect, as I think I said in my post, Romana was right.
But we shouldn't leave people who are indifferent towards education in charge of education. We need folks that are really interested if anything. Of course we aren't going to storm into the white house and take charge. But we can do things, at the grass roots level, arguing inconsistent opinion leaders in our respective social groups, extolling the benefits to indifferent folks, but who have children who could be benefitted, which would almost immediately draw their interest again to pro-education attitudes, joining clubs and organizaitons which support this kinda stuff or going to homeless sheleters,etc.
I mean, fook, we can't just wait for a revolution. I don't wanna see any friends or you folks hurt in that way. And I'll be honest, I don't want that to happen to me. We have to start sometime, whether now or during the turmoil of a nation wide crisis. Might as well be now right? All doctrines that preach the end of history or the future as perfection, like the millenial religions and communism/authoritarian socialism, have been terroristic and among the worst sources of freedom and safety of our contemporary centuries.
I, personally, will not wait for the worst. I live too short of a life for anything like that. Besides, I can't live with myself when I do that.
In relation, if I don't get myself into some kind of habitat for humanity or homeless shelter help, I'm going to hang myself by my testicles from the closest apple tree. And there are orchards all around Green Bay. God damned apple trees, always after my nuts. |
The greatest thing about democracy, honestly, is that it allows revolution without bloodshed. The only thing that can cause a civil war or revolution within a democracy is splitting the population into two sides that hate each other so much that they're unwilling to even listen to each other...
Hmm...
That's depressing. I wish I knew what to do about that.
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Romana
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Stuckasfook: you are connected to this because it was your comments about education that prompted my thoughts. They are not a criticism of you or your views.
You are right, that many children live in conditions of poverty, crime, and violence that interfere with their receiving a good education. My criticism, though, is levelled at those healthy, "normal" children living in safe, comfortable suburbs. All their needs are met; they do not have to work for anything, but expect it to be handed to them. If anything, the slum kids may at least see value in education as a way out of their environment, even if they cannot get it. The well-off kids take it for granted as another thing they do not need to work at. Zephr explained this well:
| zephr wrote: | We have a culture of willful ignorance in America today. Children are brought into it by television and neglectful parenting long before they ever reach our education system. Our whole culture needs to rediscover its respect for intelligence before we have any hope of making any real progress toward a more educated public.
Unfortunately the only realistic way I can see that happening is for us to suffer the consequences of an uneducated public. We're getting there, but I think it will have to get worse before we will be forced to face it. |
This is obviously not the fault of the children, but rather of their parents, and of everyone in society who enables their short-sighted and hedonistic behavior by putting effort ahead of accomplishment and being ahead of doing. Yes, everyone is not cut out to be a rocket scientist, but everyone has something that they are good at, and should be encouraged to discover what this is and to develop it. Discovering the rewards of investing time and effort into learning something is one of the best ways to promote life-long learning, independence, and healthy self-esteem.
What is a good education? One fundamental aspect is that it should include critical thinking about whatever is taught, whether that be science, history, literature, or auto mechanics. Students must learn to think for themselves, to ask questions, to go beyond the spoonfeeding and textbooks and rote memorization to understand what is really going on. This is also the aspect of education most essential for a strong democracy.
The distinction you (Stuckasfook) make between intellectuals and workers seems more one of economic status than actual academic accomplishment. The people who truly have no understanding of the working class are those who are born into wealth and never bother to look beyond that. They may attend ivy league schools, but that does not make them intellectuals. On the other hand, many highly educated people and true scholars started from humble beginnings, and from both their family background and their own need to earn money for school, are well-acquainted with working-class life.
Yes, any kind of productive work deserves respect, as do those who make it their business to do it well. I think the mentality that everyone must go to college actually denigrates professions that traditionally have not required college. There is nothing wrong with receiving career training in some other setting - chef or cosmetology school, the military, an apprenticeship. People who choose these routes should not be made to feel of less value or even less smart because they did not attend college. And as Lightsun mentions, it should be easier to go back later and obtain additional or different education. All this costs money, of course, but one option I think is vastly underutilized is having businesses sponsor future employees to go to school, similar to ROTC programs.
Finally, the idea was raised of the need to teach morals. Perhaps, but whose morality? Is it moral to have sex before marriage, or to have the class pray in school? There may be a straightforward answer here, especially on moral questions where there is widespread agreement (e.g. stealing is bad). One can get far, however, just by examining cause and effect relationships. For example, one can say one should not lie because it is wrong. Or, one can point out that lying destroys people's trust in you such that they will not want to work or associate with you. This kind of practical approach is more universal, and may make more of an impression on young people who want to see the relevance of lessons in real life.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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Stuckasfook
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the slum kids may at least see value in education as a way out of their environment, |
I'm not quite so sure if all ghettoized children experience this thought.
| Quote: | | The distinction you (Stuckasfook) make between intellectuals and workers seems more one of economic status than actual academic accomplishment. The people who truly have no understanding of the working class are those who are born into wealth and never bother to look beyond that. They may attend ivy league schools, but that does not make them intellectuals. On the other hand, many highly educated people and true scholars started from humble beginnings, and from both their family background and their own need to earn money for school, are well-acquainted with working-class life. |
If you follow who has the best education, and most access to education, it does tend to follow along economic lines. The ghettoized children is an example. Wealth, status, influence, connections, makes people more experienced in a variety of life circumstances, makes them geographically and socially mobile, gives way to better chances of attaining higher degrees of learning. Poverty and isolation do the exact opposite. Most priveledges tend to be cohesive and garner others as one grows: education leads to more wealth and connections (this is why a majority of people go to college, for better paying possible jobs), wealth leads to status connections, influence and better chances for potential higher learning, etc.
I have been reading a bunch on this lately, and am still learning. But the relationships between better education and wealth is real. And while there have been plenty of down trodden scholars, intellectuals do tend to spring out more from the middle classes, which inherited the liberal attitudes of their forefathers, who fought there way into politics with shrewd businessmen and political movements that sought to extend suffrage. They were the ones who were specifically responsible for pushing for labor unions and communism and so on. The lower working classes (lower as in manual work in a factory, 60 hours a week, compared to middle class work, which could be anything from being a small businessman, government employee, etc) hardly ever produced much in the way of leaders for their own movements into power. The fact that the intellectuals of our preceding generations were wrong about thinking it was right to make the masses politcally active without educating them first led to the worst governments and atrocities of the last century. This is what we have to deal with. Pushing for voter participation is useless without education. Without a firm grasp of the effects of policy, voting and so much more, asking for massive turn outs at the polls is akin to asking people that know nothing about national situations to make national decisions. It is truly absurd. There is lots of evidence to suggest that when a democracy is working well, its voter turn out will be lower. On the other hand, when it is doing bad, in crisis situations and revolutionary scenarios, voter turn out will become high.
Sorry for the digressing.. So anyways, wealth and education do tend to correlate. In fact, the lower classes contain the most apathetic and uncaring citizens, shown in low voter turn out, ignorance of the issues, preferring 'strong leaders', etc. Also, they are the most often authoritarian in many respects, from an environment that nurtures such views: factory work and obedience to superiors, physical, and often arbitrary, punishment experienced as a child from parents, lack of encouragement to seek education, less diversification of ideology, less access to information and different people, and so on. Even though they live in a democracy, most of their attitudes about how things should be handled, in politics and personal life, often fall back on an authortarian platform.
So, as you pointed out, while gifted people can come from the lowest stratum, the reality is that they most often do not. Not because they can't, but because they haven't got the same opportunity. An inner city youth in Chicago is an extreme example. While poverty alone isn't enough to always stop critical thinking and further education, being wealthy sure wouldn't hurt to stimulate and progress any mind.
The fact that there are such situations as inner city youths that are more turned on to drug dealing than becoming legal business men or educated persons, and other similar situations, is one of the biggest contradictions to our supposedly just and fair society, which is supposed to derive its brilliance in an educated citizenry. |
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