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bava · Member Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 13

Someone came close to below, but actually what distinguishes mankind from animals is this illusive free will. Of course, the more bonded one is the less the "free" part, although the "will" may be there. I think I'll....stop...no I'll stay...nah...See y'all when and where I want to. However, I was just checking out another discussion dealing with the "non-linear". The variables, indeed, are too vast to think about. But in pondering the reality of it all - while counting the visible stars of the universes - there's a lotta possibilities to choose from. Billions of people take their own unique direction, as far as samples may tell. Bottom line? Freedom is in having a great and all-loving heart that embraces everything. How unique while everyone seems to think "cool" is dark and sad. Then you are free. How can a candle flame flicker free in the noon-day sun? You can do what you want, but no one is free of the actual laws that govern human behavior. Whatever freedom I choose there is some variable that I do not choose entering in. Pure science would try to quel the invader and isolate the desired goal. Freedom then would be in absolute submission... This is off the top of my head but it feels interesting. So, I'll submit it.

No Guts · Member Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 15

Just a thought on free will... When I want something, I'm compelled by my self to want that, no? I can choose to eat and sleep and meet you and follow the rules. But, It's only my choice because I want to. Can I choose what I want? It's really annoying to come home to a pretty girl and I "want" to have sex with her, but I don't really want to. Thus, what was first planned to be a hot sexually charged sweating nightlong session of unbelievable sex becomes dissapointment for her and a quick: "Nah, I don't want to..." for me...

I want to, but I don't want to. Did I choose, or did all the other voices in my head choose? So, how much am I my thoughts?

The opposite works aswell, I want to but I want more not to want to. Self- control. And of course those conversations I have with my self to convince me to do or not do something. But I need convincing. And I'm the one doing the convincing. So, which one of those thoughts trying to convince me am I then? I claim ownership to all of them, their all my thoughts. But where lies me as the person doing the choosing?
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SIO · Advanced Member Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 166

Hmmm... Are you sure we aren't exactly like animals, following a pre-set path of input and reaction? And the only thing that separates us from animals is the intelligence to have the stupidity to believe we control ourselves?

No Guts · Member Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 15

Exactly. SIO, you hit the nail on the head.

I gotto say though, I'm sure if animals could talk they would probably insist that they control their destiny pretty much the same as humans do... The self- system in action again.

It would seem the main thing that seperates humans from other animals would be our ability to communicate concepts.

The net function of the entire system "making its mind up" results in a feeling of free will. The feeling that the choice that was made was made in "unity" within the entity that makes up the "self". That is to say doubt has been removed to such a degree as to make the entire system seem unified into one "mind", possibly helping in creating the feeling of "self" many higher life forms seem to exhibit.

This should happen unless the self-system has not been developed. A form of this can apparantly happen in individuals who have had their assertiveness severely oppressed by outside influence. Un or under- developed sense of self resulting in the individual discarding the importance of the self. Among the symptoms are a lack of opinions regarding what the individual "wants". So, if your dog wants something, then he probably also has a sense of self Wink

...
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Lurker · Advanced Member Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 157

I don't think we have true free will. We can trick ourselves into thinking we do, though, and that is almost as good as the real thing.

Our minds set our limits. For instance, someone with an IQ of 120 may never be as enlightened as someone with an IQ of 160, no matter how much he or she wants to be. This is just one biological limitation we have.

Our five senses are also constraints. We can hear, but not as well as many animals. We can smell, but not as well as a bloodhound. So, what are we missing out on? Quite a lot!

Not everyone can be an Olympic runner because of predetermined physical limitations.

So, free will is an illusion. We have limited free will; that is, there is a glass ceiling above us, whether we chose to acknowledge it or not. Having said that, there are the people who do not acknowledge it. They think they have free will, which is almost as good as the real thing. Reality vs. perception............if you believe you have free will, I guess you do.
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No Guts · Member Joined: 30 Sep 2005 Posts: 15

Ok, accepting for a minute that free will is an illusion, where does this illusion come from? What purpose would something like that serve? Since it is a very important element in our (Greek rooted North-Western Europe from where I am standing) culture, I think this is a fair question.

According to Wikipedia it is an imposed system and a mechanism to make individuals aware of their responsibilities in life. (Paraphrased by me)

But, I were thinking... Could it be a mechanism to foster a poignant drive to make something out of your life, to encourage development? Should compare societies with differing free will philosphies to check if there is any relation... Free will societies having higher rate of development than those denying free will sort of thing...
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Archangel · Advanced Member Joined: 30 May 2005 Posts: 102

Lurker · Advanced Member Joined: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 157

evolvingcode · Newbie Joined: 27 Aug 2005 Posts: 8 Location: Australia

[I think that] our genes predispose us (aside from physical traits) to neural pathway frameworks. being bought up in an environment that has also encouraged similar neural frameworks (take biological parents who do not ever challenge their natural thought-pattern inclinations) re-enforces the probability that these pathways will remain in line with genetic hints.

challenging the pathways promotes re-wiring & true freedom. all freedom comes at the cost of effort & the sacrifice of comfort. those who are not prepared to trust in the unknown and feel mad for a while will not exceed the comfort of their predisposition and are set to have their futures mapped out for them already.

the path of least resistance never involves true choice.

ENTP@INTP · Advanced Member Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 139

Jhyana · Advanced Member Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1903

Bump

I read Meta's question wrong--DRATS! Mad

Drown.

somnium · Member Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

"the illusion of free will"

"reality is merely an illusion, abeit a very persistent one"

"what one is aware of has pull, it forces one to see the world one is aware of"

expectations create a continuity, which is still an illusion within infinity.

become aware of something else, is to become aware of something one was previously unaware of.

"at our greatest potential one is pure vibrational energy"

traveling the worlds as pure awareness, one can become aware of anything.

"the possibilities are endless" "seeing is believing"

somnium · Member Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

that said..

i am eating a chocolate custard pie

i am glad i became aware of what it tastes like

mmmm

it has some lil nuts on it too

they taste really good, but i dont know what they are called..

i imagine however that they still have name, and an orgin etc

probably has many names, and people prolly taste them very differently

some prolly do not even like them

i dunno

but i am glad, and very thankfull for them

and i am thankfull especially for everything i am unaware of

for it gives me so much to learn!

Kyle · Advanced Member Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 2210

Some things can't be controlled.
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somnium · Member Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

enhancing awareness is like learning of lies

lies fall away, replaced with more powerful lies

illusions are the lies

out of infinite lies

lies fall away when paired against truth

one dies

to live in truth

be prepared to let go of the lie

for all things die

perhaps you choose the lie, or another lie

to again be paired with truth

a higher truth

the cycle of life and death

expansion

a cycle much like an expanding spiral