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nonentropic
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 Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: - Mechanic of the Mind - |
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does anyone else think-feel-and/or believe (want to be) a Mechanic of the Mind? i consider myself to be one. i'm willing to talk about this, learn from others if i can, and help others if possible as well. let me know...thanks.
- ken -
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lordofthefood1
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Could you, uh, explain Mechanic of the Mind?
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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good question. yes, i probably can. i'll work on this. it's an older concept-idea of mine. seems to include some of what psychology is about doesn't it? it does. it's more about being able help one's self, if able/if possible, versus seeking outside help in any form. it has a lot to do with internal focus/inward focus, knowing one's self very well or seeking this...and then if desired, succeeding in changing/making one's life better...in whatever direction/way is desired. if one spends enough time internally focussed, as i have, one may also learn some things/many things about one's self...and also learn some things that can be applied to others. we'll see. part of it is about taking a good look at what one is retaining in one's head/mind and why. it's not about brainwashing...it's about allowing one to have more control over one's self. it's about getting better at being, knowing and becoming one's self. as i often say: self-determining. whatever...i'll get back to this later when i've got something to say. time for me to take a break from what i've been focussing on too much lately...ie. the US and world economic systems. time for me to pull back let things settle down...myself included.
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Mescaline
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | good question. yes, i probably can. i'll work on this. it's an older concept-idea of mine. seems to include some of what psychology is about doesn't it? it does. it's more about being able help one's self, if able/if possible, versus seeking outside help in any form. it has a lot to do with internal focus/inward focus, knowing one's self very well or seeking this...and then if desired, succeeding in changing/making one's life better...in whatever direction/way is desired. if one spends enough time internally focussed, as i have, one may also learn some things/many things about one's self...and also learn some things that can be applied to others. we'll see. part of it is about taking a good look at what one is retaining in one's head/mind and why. it's not about brainwashing...it's about allowing one to have more control over one's self. it's about getting better at being, knowing and becoming one's self. as i often say: self-determining. whatever...i'll get back to this later when i've got something to say. time for me to take a break from what i've been focussing on too much lately...ie. the US and world economic systems. time for me to pull back let things settle down...myself included. |
Totally man. It's like being, myself. And totally seeing the fourth dimension of the mind and the person inside myself through my mind. My mind reflecting on mind, the mind staring into the abyss. Like totally knowing what the person in my mind is thinking through the abyss. |
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Mescaline wrote: | | Totally man. It's like being, myself. And totally seeing the fourth dimension of the mind and the person inside myself through my mind. My mind reflecting on mind, the mind staring into the abyss. Like totally knowing what the person in my mind is thinking through the abyss. |
cool. when i get my thoughts straightened-out better/better organized and maybe get some good sleep...i may add some more to this post.
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(10/4/08) okay bear with on this...i may repeat myself several times in what follows. the top stuff is the most recent for the most part. i need to post this and study it and i will likely (eh, may) edit again later. just gotta get a good grip on this stuff. i'm not sure that i'm there yet. yeah, good sleep whould help...i think
- now i need to simplify it...i think. - n/b/k :)
10/5/08: the 3 (and to my mind only 3) physical/material/normal matter dimensions [of which nothing will be known unless there is also movement/motion/"life" (in a sense "life" is movement/change)...and absolute "death" is the complete absence of movement/change] produce a form of living organism/a species (seems necessary that it be a reproducible group such that awareness of self and then society can develop which leads to further brain/mind/consciousness development/power/creative ability-potential and so on) and then perhaps this species (as is the case with us) will (given the nature of this "lifeverse"/the whole) develop consciousness/self-awareness/perspective/self-determining abilities/creativity and perhaps one day become the intelligence for the entire lifeverse/universe/whole (in a sense again, we are the universe/lifeverse getting to know and apparently order/control itself...in a sense. one inside one). the basic 3D matter will not be known to exist until a conscious life form can perceive it. "time"/the idea/concept/recognition/awareness of change will not exist either unless and until (will exist only as long as) there is and/or remains at least one conscious perceiver/lifeform.
(shit!) in sum: "the mind"/a mind/one's mind creates reality (i give "it" -us- the primary focus-preference-role/place/center of importance-significance...for selfish self-serving/self preservationist/self-perpetuating reasons :) ... whereas i also admit this "reality" is largely dependent upon and inextricable from the individual (plus one's society), all that one exists within, all that is and all that can be. ...more later maybe....
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okay, i will try this again: in a theoretical "snapshot" of something ("begs the question" that there could be anything existing/known to exist or even considered...as is the case here without "time"...i agree...still there is no "time" without a conscious perceiver and this most likely means/requires more than one sentient being's existence in some sense for sufficient mental-cognitive development to occur to even allow such mental activity) there are only 3 physical/tangible dimensions (- it makes no sense to my mind that there can be anymore than this. - fwiw) "x-y-z" axes/length-width-height (or depth). time in a very real sense does not exist (and not just in the instant...rather it is a concept akin to numbers and words...although it is even more obscure do to the fact that we associate/ascribe even few symbols to it/with it) time is a tool we have developed to describe humanly perceptible change/changes in things. time requires more than one point of reference. it requires a context but it is not the same context that is required/that surrounds-supports-contains an object. individual human consciousness could be considered a 4th dimension but it really isn't a true dimension either (more a perspective on...an awareness of and still existent apparently only because of the nature, potential and characteresitcs of the other 3D's and the substance they consist of in our universe/lifeverse). rather it's more like perpsective/a perspective on all the rest that is/exists (or perhaps that can be). time is again a very useful tool for mental organization, figuring out how one should do something, for solving equations/problems that require change/a movement factor and so on. it seems to me that all that exists has 3 dimensions. if something exists it will have 3 and only 3 dimensions. time does not have 3 dimensions so it does not exist in the sense that things do. it is like the concept for the number "1". it is like our dreams. we imagine and create them...though we can make many things born of the mind real in this world to a very high degree...something things conceived in the mind will only ever be ideas because they are not actually translatable into the physical. they are only descriptions and generalizatons of the physical...thus remaining ideas and concepts always...as long as they remain in the mind. (so it seems that some of the nebulous qualities of the mind can be ascibed to some of the things born in it/spawned there/occurring there. this seems to be the "transition zone"...the area/space and place where reality is born. this is the edge.) the concept is born in the mind and the mind is real (coalescing from all that the human body is and it's potentail and yet this apparently does seem to be the conscious limit of the extension/of our probing physically inward at this time). time is a measure of something (it is a mental quantity/and an a perceived quality by which we tend to describe things)...it is not real...it is conscious awareness and understanding of change in something and on a scale we created, can understand and use. things are in motion. without consciousness (by my theory/understanding/conception of things) there is no time. things may change...but, one will never know it unless one is conscious. eh, enough on this for now.
2nd edit: with a "snapshot" of something a "time/date" is often ascribed to the image. 3 dimensonal things cpatured in a sense for an instant.
[edit: fuck-it....consciousness (one's perspective on things) could be called the "4th dimension" {the view/way/path/means by which one conceives-perceives-experiences-understands the whole} (in all it's aspects...but it will always be the result of a 3D base...because it exists and thus must be physical and 3D as well)...the "physical" alive and "self-aware"... sprung-developed-resulted from the other 3 (to my mind and understanding) and it is perspective/the sense of self-"the self"/the point-the place from which we-each of us lives-creates-generates...and as much as possible determines our"self"/our identity/what we are and all that is around us there after. consciousness (intelligence-feelings/the "spirit" and all) was born from the progression of the universe/lifeverse...and now we are the process by which the "whole" will organize itself. the dominant lifeforms to my knowledge and thus, our minds will be charged and likely responsible for much of the shape of things to come...at least for now. yeah, i'm biased toward the human perspective of things fwiw :) .... yeah, and "time" is used as 4th dimension/factor in equations/speech and may other practical things. it's useful to think of it this way. though it does not exist to my understanding in a physical sense. for rate of change...duration..."time" requires more than one point of referrence...whereas and object can be considered at a so called "instant in time". both require and will have context but contexts are different. one just needs surrounds/an enviroment of some sort...the other requires some perceptible degree of change.]
:) .... yeah, that's sort of the gist of it. although from my p.o.v. there is no fourth dimension (though consciousness/awareness/sentience is not present in all things and to the same degree either. it's a more highly evolved property/trait that a thing in this unified whole can have/can develop. it is the most powerful characteristic too obviously...and it has "god-like" potential as well). the mind is real. it is part of reality. it is an integral inseparable part of the biological human organism (results from our biology, the nature of this world and things). it's just been very hard for folks to incorporate this into the totality of self. things that are electronic and/or very hard to actually detect are similar to the existence of the human mind/human consciousness. even so, the mind exists and we are conscious. there is no 4th dimension. time is an everpresent now. we are able to experience change and we classify/have classified this experience of change (to some degree) as our experience of "time" (we have memories, dreams and we do create)... it's humanly relative, structured, organized, grouped and so forth (in essence) and it's completely interwoven with our mental development and awareness. - damn...i'm not trying to be a bummer and/or bring anyone down. each has the right to keep there own view on things. i can be wrong...i will never be perfect. there's room for improvement with me. i will consider things from others as well. maybe i'll even change a little :) ... i certainly hope so. i seek to help not to hurt. -
i really began my deep and long-term inward journey when i was around 15 and through age 19 or so. this was my "existential depression period" and in many ways it was the worst and most difficult part of my life...but, it was here that i really looked into the abyss of myself (and all that surrounds me) and began the process of finding my core (getting back to it) and then building, protecting and seeking to become it/become myself as well as i possibly could. it's an ongoing process. it does work though. i think it does. hopefully some others will understand this..see the value in it...learn how to strengthen themselves etc...and be better and happier for it. we'll see. yeah, there's still a lot more to say/explain and so on i think/feel and believe - here -.
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Romana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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As a brief aside: confining physical reality to three dimensions is fine if you mean three spatial dimensions. There are physical attributes that are represented in more than three dimensions, typically by tensors of order higher than 3. These include properties like stiffness, stress-induced anisotropy, elasto-optic and photo-optic behavior. These are difficult to visualize, and fortunately can usually be simplified considerably in practical situations.
But I am intrigued by your comments and interested in learning more. I would like to understand the workings of the mind better as well. I have been reading a book on meditation that describes it as one way to gain such knowledge, specifically by becoming a more attentive and objective observer of the workings of one's own mind.
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Romana
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Mayflow
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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As to meditation, I would very highly recommend Thomas Cleary's
interpretation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower"
http://taoism.about.com/od/scriptures/qt/goldenflower.htm
| Quote: | “The golden flower symbolizes the quintessence of the paths of Buddhism and Taoism. Gold stands for light, the light of the mind itself; the flower represents the blossoming, or opening up, of the light of the mind. Thus the expression is emblematic of the basic awakening of the real self and its hidden potential.”
The central practice offered in this scripture is the practice of “turning the light around” – of reversing our habitual tendency to project our awareness “out” into a “world” that we perceive as being inherently separate from us – and instead learning to focus inwardly. The language – though poetic – is simple and direct, making this text much more accessible than many other Inner Alchemy scriptures, which oftentimes are bogged down in archaic alchemical symbolism. |
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | As a brief aside: confining physical reality to three dimensions is fine if you mean three spatial dimensions. There are physical attributes that are represented in more than three dimensions, typically by tensors of order higher than 3. These include properties like stiffness, stress-induced anisotropy, elasto-optic and photo-optic behavior. These are difficult to visualize, and fortunately can usually be simplified considerably in practical situations. |
i am curious as to how you or anyone else comes to the conclusion that there are or can be anymore that 3 dimensions (specifically the physical/tangible). to my mind this is impossible. i have looked at others explanations before and everytime they were flawed. Carl Sagan made similar mistakes in his geat Cosmos series as well. thanks.
edit: physical attributes seems more like just taking into account more than 3 traits or characterstics of a thing/of something. this is descriptive of the thing itself but that does not change the fact that the thing in question (if it exists in this world...especially outside of the mind) will only/and must exactly have only 3 axes.
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lordofthefood1
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Romana wrote: | | As a brief aside: confining physical reality to three dimensions is fine if you mean three spatial dimensions. There are physical attributes that are represented in more than three dimensions, typically by tensors of order higher than 3. These include properties like stiffness, stress-induced anisotropy, elasto-optic and photo-optic behavior. These are difficult to visualize, and fortunately can usually be simplified considerably in practical situations. |
i am curious as to how you or anyone else comes to the conclusion that there are or can be anymore that 3 dimensions (specifically the physical/tangible). to my mind this is impossible. i have looked at others explanations before and everytime they were flawed. Carl Sagan made similar mistakes in his geat Cosmos series as well. thanks.
edit: physical attributes seems more like just taking into account more than 3 traits or characterstics of a thing/of something. this is descriptive of the thing itself but that does not change the fact that the thing in question (if it exists in this world...especially outside of the mind) will only/and must exactly have only 3 axes. |
If you can adjust them, you have more than 3 axes
they just aren't aligned into a grid
Take like, luminosity
You can change something dark and light, correct?
That is an axis
just not as l/w/d spatial
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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luminousity would be a trait or characteristic of a (3D) object/thing...something that it gives off/radiates/reflects (a particular visible wavelength of light for instance) that is then perceived by us. this is not another physical dimension...a 4th dimension. it's much more the evidence of the interconnectedness of all things i think. what is experienced by us as the luminousity of an object is in fact a form electro-chemical radiation...another real thing...a form of energy related to the object relative to us. the object is 3D while our perception and experience/knowledge of it will largely be do to it's superficial and essential traits. other knowledge and understanding of a particular object can be obtained through mentally considering it and/or using other human tools to gauge and better know it...again relative to us.
the object itself has 3 and only 3 axes. luminousity, hardness, density, velocity, magnetism and so on are just ways in which we describe things in relation to other things and in ways that are meaningful and make sense (in some way it is hoped) to us.
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Romana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| nonentropic wrote: | | Romana wrote: | | As a brief aside: confining physical reality to three dimensions is fine if you mean three spatial dimensions. There are physical attributes that are represented in more than three dimensions, typically by tensors of order higher than 3. These include properties like stiffness, stress-induced anisotropy, elasto-optic and photo-optic behavior. These are difficult to visualize, and fortunately can usually be simplified considerably in practical situations. |
i am curious as to how you or anyone else comes to the conclusion that there are or can be anymore that 3 dimensions (specifically the physical/tangible). to my mind this is impossible. i have looked at others explanations before and everytime they were flawed. Carl Sagan made similar mistakes in his geat Cosmos series as well. thanks. |
Note what I wrote, highlighted above: 3 dimensions is sufficient to describe the spatial extent of something, in other words, physical space -- just as you point out. It is other attributes of objects that sometimes are described with more dimensions. To some degree, this is just a mathematical construct, but it does describe a physical reality, albeit one that cannot be easily visualized, as 3-dimensional space can.
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Romana
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HatchBack176
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I can summarize the exchange...
Linear Algebra. |
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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algebra as in multiple variables (perhaps limitless)...but not more than 3 dimensions. this too loose and inaccurate use of the term dimension is quite annoying to me. where the hell is the clear thinking??? you see the problem i have with things. yes...i am stubborn. a 4th dimension (physical dimension) or more supposedly connected to and/or extending beyond what we exist within is pure nonsense. one can talk about barriers and realms within realms...and that is fine but, to discuss and propose/suppose the existence of other dimensions of a nature equivalent to/very similar to the 3 we exist within is utterly false.
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Romana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hatchback is right - in linear algebra (and elsewhere) we really do deal with n-dimensional problems. It is the view of "dimesion" as referring only to the physical, spatial reality with which we are all familiar, that is overly restrictive.
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Romana
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nonentropic
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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maybe so...that doesn't make them real though. again, it is the usage for the term dimension that is so bothersome to me. mathematics is a mental humanly created and useful tool. in reality, numbers do not exist except as symbols that represent ideas/concepts. the mind can deal with and consider things that do not and cannot exist outside of itself. sometimes realizing this helps one to "see" the true nature of all things better...sometimes not.
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