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sexyredsneakers
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Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 48
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 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: Re: ENJF |
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| sexyredsneakers wrote: | There are those of us ESFJs that have a conscince you know. Where it is in our disposition to make someone feel guilty for their bad behavior. It is the bad behavior that causes me to react that way in the first place. There are those of us who struggle with NOT doing that to people, but it is hard when you have close friends who are naughty.
Also, lordofthefood1 has it, we do tell little white lies so NOT to hurt people, as opposed to telling lies to hurt someone specifically, or lying to someone so that a person can continue their naughty behavior, etc. I don't know if its right. A lie is a lie? Maybe, but with as mean as I can be (which is a perceived belief of my personality )is actually just the fact I am upfront/honest with people. It seems though if you are honest about how you feel your a bitch, so since I "don't want to be a bitch", I lie so not to hurt feelings. Which comes from a different place in the heart |
OOPS! I fucked up, (see admitting I fucked up). Not my personality type, but what I said stands true to myself anyway. Sorry.
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Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise.
Margaret Atwood, Cat's Eye, 1988
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HT
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Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 4998
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: |
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i found that funny for some reason. Self-quoting and fucking it up. 
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Wrath Angel
MBTI Subtype: iNtP
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zillah
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Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Further more... |
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| Yogurt wrote: | My issue with the ENFJ is that I feel like she's never real with me. So much fakeness.
Most of the time I feel like she ignores how I feel and tries to impose her views onto me. |
That's funny, I didn't see this post but this is a lot like my mum. She's been thingy with me lately and making little comments.  I never know what starts it up again, we were going fine for ages but all of a sudden, I don't measure up.
She tries extremely hard, I often feel that it's in all the wrong places.
Irrational, inconsistent and unfair was how I experienced her parenting as a child, which is just not great for an ISTJ child.
I know, I'm 32 and still bitching about my poor mother, get over it already. |
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zillah
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Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2740
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: ENJF |
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| sexyredsneakers wrote: | | Not my personality type, but what I said stands true to myself anyway. Sorry. |
Don't worry, ESFJ and ENFJ share the same dominant function and I think in the aspect you were talking about, they are very similar. |
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EmeraldxFairy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2008
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Doesn't everybody lie regardless of their personality type?
To say "ENFJ's lie" is like saying that "ENFJ's eat & sleep".
If anyone ever tells you they've never lied before, they're lying. haha
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Romana
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Joined: 24 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| EmeraldxFairy wrote: | Doesn't everybody lie regardless of their personality type?
To say "ENFJ's lie" is like saying that "ENFJ's eat & sleep".
If anyone ever tells you they've never lied before, they're lying. haha |
I can usually manage to be sufficiently deceitful without outright lying.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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Annabel_Lee
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Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 1051
Location: A kingdom by the sea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | EmeraldxFairy wrote: | Doesn't everybody lie regardless of their personality type?
To say "ENFJ's lie" is like saying that "ENFJ's eat & sleep".
If anyone ever tells you they've never lied before, they're lying. haha |
I can usually manage to be sufficiently deceitful without outright lying. |
Sure, but doesn't a lot of that depend on how one defines a "lie"?
One can limit that to be a complete untruth. But to some degree, a partial truth or omission of critical details wouldn't be significantly different from a lie.
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Zephr
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Location: Tacoma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, I don't see how lying is necessary.
Sure, the vast majority of people of every type have lied or been otherwise deceitful at some point, but I don't see how it's integral to being human.
Everyone needs to eat and sleep regardless of their circumstances. The need to deceive is purely contextual. I could believe that someone somewhere in the world has never lied.
Of course, given the odds involved, if I met them and they told me that they'd never lied I wouldn't believe them.
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lilithsansracine
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Joined: 17 Jul 2008
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Zephr wrote: | Honestly, I don't see how lying is necessary.
Sure, the vast majority of people of every type have lied or been otherwise deceitful at some point, but I don't see how it's integral to being human.
Everyone needs to eat and sleep regardless of their circumstances. The need to deceive is purely contextual. I could believe that someone somewhere in the world has never lied.
Of course, given the odds involved, if I met them and they told me that they'd never lied I wouldn't believe them. |
Lying is not always conscious.
A simple rearrangement of words, diction, could give a false impression of an actual event.
We can hold back facts all the time. That is not lying per se, but still "deception".
A person would have to live somewhere really idealistic to never have held back facts at least.
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Lilith sans Racine
INTP, RCUEI, Enneagram 7/5, sx/sp/so, Facilitator
"I accept chaos. I don't know whether it accepts me." - Arthur Rimbaud, I'm Not There |
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Zephr
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Location: Tacoma
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| lilithsansracine wrote: | | Zephr wrote: | Honestly, I don't see how lying is necessary.
Sure, the vast majority of people of every type have lied or been otherwise deceitful at some point, but I don't see how it's integral to being human.
Everyone needs to eat and sleep regardless of their circumstances. The need to deceive is purely contextual. I could believe that someone somewhere in the world has never lied.
Of course, given the odds involved, if I met them and they told me that they'd never lied I wouldn't believe them. |
Lying is not always conscious.
A simple rearrangement of words, diction, could give a false impression of an actual event.
We can hold back facts all the time. That is not lying per se, but still "deception".
A person would have to live somewhere really idealistic to never have held back facts at least. |
True, I'm not saying it's common. I'm not even saying it's something that has ever happened.
I just can't say for sure it hasn't happened. Lying doesn't seem basic to being human to me.
Whenever you're not constantly spouting off everything you know you're holding back facts. Really even if you did that you couldn't be saying everything at once, so you'd still be holding things back.
To me, deception requires an intent to make the other person believe something that you believe is untrue.
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Romana
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Zephr wrote: | | To me, deception requires an intent to make the other person believe something that you believe is untrue. |
Usually when I deceive, it is to keep someone from finding out something (true) rather than to cause them to believe something untrue. I realize this is a subtle distinction, since keeping someone unaware of something can be viewed as propagating the untruth of its nonexistence.
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Romana
INTJ
“The awareness of our own weaknesses allows us to view the weaknesses of others with immense compassion and to appreciate the value of their offerings.” ~ Logospilgrim |
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Zephr
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Romana wrote: | | Zephr wrote: | | To me, deception requires an intent to make the other person believe something that you believe is untrue. |
Usually when I deceive, it is to keep someone from finding out something (true) rather than to cause them to believe something untrue. I realize this is a subtle distinction, since keeping someone unaware of something can be viewed as propagating the untruth of its nonexistence. |
It's one thing to omit a vital piece of information in a way that leads a person to reach an incorrect conclusion about something they are aware of, and a completely different thing to let someone remain unaware of something.
They may both be wrong depending on the circumstances, or they both may be the best overall course of action, again depending on the circumstances, but only the first one is deceit. At least to me.
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alexandertheprettygood
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Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| NapoleonXIV wrote: |
I am what you would call introversion blind. My entire life I have just
assumed that everyone was openly talking to everyone. For some reason, The
shyest most hermitlike people have always felt free to talk to me. It is
only recently that I have become aware that some people do not talk to
everyone. "The ENFJ may feel quite lonely even when surrounded by people." <<<< Thats
me
I'm not always sure if I am the healthiest Me that I can be. I would like to
know more about the "dark" sides of my personality. |
Hi, above is an old Post but I'm relatively new here and wanted to chime in on some of those points!
Agreed with NapoleonXIV - I can totally get anyone to talk to me too but not for evil gain but motivated by whats good for them ...
In fact, with some unemotionally aware people... I've discovered that getting them to say something out loud can actually be a self realisation opportunity.
Like NapoleanXIV, Discovering Typing actually helped me realise we're not all as alike as I had naturally assumed 
And on the other point, the loneliness... I wonder what you other ENFJs put it down too?
For me, I think it may be a combo of reasons.
1) we can fake being who we are if it makes it easier for others to relate to us or feel less threatened (I called it my 'dumb blonde' routine - for those who don't seem to be able to handle the real me ... I act like I know less, think less and am not so seriously minded).
2) maybe because we have some private sides that we would only ever expose to someone who asked the right questions - and how many people can do that really? |
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EmeraldxFairy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: |
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My husband knows the answer.
It is natural for everyone to feel lonely even when surrounded by people. It's just that us ENFJ's tend to verbalize that feeling more than some other types.
For instance, walk down the street, punch everyone you see in the arm. Some will express their pain and others will not. We must be careful to understand that because they do not express it (extraversion the feeling or thought) does not mean they did not feel pain.
There's a paragraph in "A Portrait of The Artist as a Young Man" by James Joyce that my husband showed me, which says that people are united by pity and terror.
"Pity is the feeling which arrests the mind in the presence of whatsoever is grave and constant in human sufferings and unites it with the human sufferer. Terror is the feeling which arrests the mind in the presence of whatsoever is grave and constant in human sufferings and unites it with the secret cause."
Pity and Terror are proper esthetic moods for proper art. Which is by definition, static. In other words, proper art arrests the mind. While improper art moves the mind with desire and loathing. A cocktail party is a prime example of improper art. Desire for your acceptance, for your guests to enjoy themselves, and to come off well. And the fear that underlies this, lest you do not (i.e. spilling your drink all over someone's beautiful dress). Thus, it is because underlying most social interaction is fear and desire. Part of you will always remain cut off because you'll be thinking "am I being liked?/ I shouldn't do something improper." It is this very apprehension that prevents you from giving yourself over to someone completely.
This apprehension dissolves in the presence of pity and/or terror.
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hertz
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Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| much of our efforts are so misdirected and misunderstood |
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